Atheistic Logic (morals, punishment, hell, eternity, bible)

[Phil Lawton]

Originally Posted by Jay

Actually, he said no such thing.

Actually....

Let's look at the situation another way. One of two things are true.

1. God exists.
2. God doesn't exist.

....he did.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Phil Lawton

Actually....

....he did.

To note that there are two theoretical possibilities says absolutely nothing about odds.

[doppelgänger]

"God" is just a shadow cast by the ego of the god observer. Some people don't look to the light from which this shadow emerges. Perhaps because they can't embrace their unity with the cosmos without suffering a loss of importance or significance, or perhaps they can't take responsibility and power over the words they use to create the universe of their experiences and the forms they perceive.

Maybe some people are just afraid of their own shadow.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally Posted by Jay

To note that there are two theoretical possibilities says absolutely nothing about odds.

What?

I give you an event with two possibilities - either "a" is true or "b" is true.

With no further evidence (i.e. which one is likelier than the other, no matter how outrageous one of them is), then you don't need to say anything about odds. By default, they're 50/50.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

So? I fail to see how this means I shouldn't question God, if such a being were to exist. I don't see how creating an intelligent being gives someone the permission to torture that creation as he sees fit.

How would I dare to question God? Because I'm a moral agent with the responsibility of making moral judgments. I dare to question because I dare to think.

If God exists, then His ways are surely better than ours.

Why would that have to be the case, especially if those ways appear evil? Evil ways lead more elegantly to the conclusion that God is evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

Um... so?

Are you saying that God created billions of humans with brains, consciences, and free will just so they can ignore all that and worship "Him" blindly?

That takes us right back to the arguments of sadism, irrationality, and frankly... megalomania.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Um... so?

Are you saying that God created billions of humans with brains, consciences, and free will just so they can ignore all that and worship "Him" blindly?

That takes us right back to the arguments of sadism, irrationality, and frankly... megalomania.

Such an idea is constructed by someone who wants to maintain an illusion of control over reality and cannot deal with being questioned. This isn't about some "God" thing or being "out there," but about the way symbols are manipulated to bring comfort and assuage fear.

The "God" of wrath, jealousy and torture is a product of the believer's own imagination. But once it is objectified outside his thought, he can fairly and correctly claim no responsibility for his creation or his own prejudices anymore. He has an excuse, thereby, to hate, condemn (and most importantly) not listen to, people who don't support his deathgrip on faith, which he clings to as though his very being depends upon it. And from his standpoint, it does, and nothing anyone says can change that because this "God" excuses the closing of the believer's mind and arrests his development.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

I would suggest to you, Storm, that the only reason you can say this is because you don't take the possibility of eternal, unimaginably horrible torture very seriously.

Uh, no, I say this because I was abused very badly from the ages of 10-14, and I never stopped fighting back. Because I've experienced unimaginable torture of the mind and heart, and it was no picnic physically, either. Because a God who would practice eternal damnation is the worst kind of abuser I can imagine. I say it because it's who I am, and I've got the scars to prove it.

You should not make such assumptions.

[Paraprakrti]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

I have heard more than I care to an argument that goes along these lines:

God is sadistic so why should I worship Him? If he tortures people for eternity, then I would gladly choose hell rather than spend eternity with Him. There is no justice or love or mercy in an infinite punishment for a finite crime (sin).

I hope that was an adequate paraphrase. The line of arguments quickly develops into a mockery of Bible verses about God's unsearchable ways. My purpose is to ask a question. Why do you (if you dare to use the above arguments) dare to question God? Let's look at the situation another way. One of two things are true.

1. God exists.
2. God doesn't exist.

I hope it is obvious that if God doesn't exist, we need not make assumptions about what He would or would not do. It is a nonissue. He doesn't exist. That is all that needs to be said. You can't prove that He doesn't exist by telling what you think He would do if He did exist and showing why that that doesn't actually happen.

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

Romans 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

If God exists and He created you, then your logic and mind is only a result of His higher mind designing you thus. The key word there is 'higher'. If God exists, then His ways are surely better than ours. After all, we are still incapable of creating anything. An atheist would do much better to not dabble in philosophical nonsense such as this, in my opinion.

This isn't atheist logic. And one can approach the problem of eternal suffering with a more objective argument. Instead of appealing to how one feels about it, one can point out that God desires that we are all saved. If God desires that we are all saved (i.e. that none should perish) then how come God contradicts that desire by forcing souls into a place from which there is no escape or rehabilitation?