Why Saved By Jesus (Messiah, gospel, incarnation, Jehovah, creation)

[FerventGodSeeker]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

Hey Rocka! If you could help me out some. In the Jewish writings we find answers to nearly every conceivable thing right down to the proper way to use the bathroom in the wilderness. Can you point me to some OT verses that say we must worship, follow or even accept the Messiah? Can you point me to any that say the Messiah is a requirement for salvation?

"Therefore thus saith the Lord, even the Lord, Behold, I lay for the foundations of Sion a costly stone, a choice, a corner-stone, a precious stone, for its foundations; and he that believes on him shall by no means be ashamed." Isaiah 28:16 (quoted in Romans 9:33)

[NoahideHiker]

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

"Therefore thus saith the Lord, even the Lord, Behold, I lay for the foundations of Sion a costly stone, a choice, a corner-stone, a precious stone, for its foundations; and he that believes on him shall by no means be ashamed." Isaiah 28:16 (quoted in Romans 9:33)

KJV- Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

NIV- So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

American Standard- Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"(A)Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested (B)stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Rom 9:33 KJV syas--As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

NIV- As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach (Jewish bible) says- Therefore, so has the Lord God said: "Behold, I have laid as a foundation a stone in Zion, a fortress stone, a costly cornerstone, a foundation well founded; the believer shall not hasten.

There is nothing there about having to follow, worship or pray to the Moshiach in order to gain salvation. When the Moshiach comes we will all know it is him and we will accept his guidance and teaching of the Torah but salvation is not dependent upon it.

[FerventGodSeeker]

[quote]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

KJV- Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

NIV- So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

American Standard- Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"(A)Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested (B)stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Rom 9:33 KJV syas--As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

NIV- As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.

The Judaica Press Complete Tanach (Jewish bible) says- Therefore, so has the Lord God said: "Behold, I have laid as a foundation a stone in Zion, a fortress stone, a costly cornerstone, a foundation well founded; the believer shall not hasten.

I was quoting the Septuagint, which is what St. Paul quoted in Romans.

There is nothing there about having to follow, worship or pray to the Moshiach in order to gain salvation.

It says that if you believe in Him you will not be put to shame. That's not salvation? What is it, in your opinion?

When the Moshiach comes we will all know it is him and we will accept his guidance and teaching of the Torah but salvation is not dependent upon it.

What will happen to people who do not accept His guidance and teaching?

[NoahideHiker]

[quote=FerventGodSeeker;890528]

I was quoting the Septuagint, which is what St. Paul quoted in Romans.

Um, Isaiah wasn't even in the origanal Septuagint. Only the first five books.

[quote=FerventGodSeeker;890528]

It says that if you believe in Him you will not be put to shame. That's not salvation? What is it, in your opinion?

No it's not salvation when compared to all the other places in the Jewish scripture where the salvation plan IS made clear. Believing in the Moshiach's teaching, Torah, doesn't mean one has gained salvation but if we do believe the teachings we won't be ashamed.

[quote=FerventGodSeeker;890528]

What will happen to people who do not accept His guidance and teaching?

Oh the whole world will follow his guidance and teaching. The Jewish scriptures are clear on that point. When the Moshiach comes there will be universal knowledge of G-d to the point that no one will need to teach his neighbor. The entire world will all come to G-d and His Torah. But again, nowhere does it say salvation is dependent upon it. Again, we such detail in the Tanach about the world and about life and how to live it right down to naming the animals by name that are unclean with no foreknowledge of the wide world. Why would the salvation plan be so shrouded and open to interpretation? G-d's ging to give the instructions on proper bathrooming but not everliving salvation?

[FerventGodSeeker]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

Um, Isaiah wasn't even in the origanal Septuagint. Only the first five books.

I'm afraid you're referring to the Torah, not the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the complete Old Testament, as translated by Greek-speaking Jews.

No it's not salvation when compared to all the other places in the Jewish scripture where the salvation plan IS made clear.

So then again, what is it?

Believing in the Moshiach's teaching, Torah, doesn't mean one has gained salvation but if we do believe the teachings we won't be ashamed.

Ashamed how? It's speaking of something in the future, right? The very fact that it would say this implies that, if you don't believe the teachings of the Messiah, you will be ashamed. Are you suggesting that all this means is that you will feel bad?

Oh the whole world will follow his guidance and teaching. The Jewish scriptures are clear on that point. When the Moshiach comes there will be universal knowledge of G-d to the point that no one will need to teach his neighbor. The entire world will all come to G-d and His Torah. But again, nowhere does it say salvation is dependent upon it.

So, when the Messiah comes, He will have no enemies? No one will oppose Him? Christians also believe that the world will come to a point where everyone on the earth will follow God (your quote of Jeremiah 31 puts it perfectly). However, we don't believe that's going to happen automatically. In Psalm 110:1-2, it says,
"The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.' The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!"

A bit later in the same Psalm it talks about Him executing kings in the day of His wrath and judging all nations. It's pretty obvious from the prophecies that the Messiah was not to be automatically received by all people; it explicitly says that He has enemies. So how exactly, would one be saved in the day of the Messiah's/God's wrath if one rejected the teachings of Messiah?

Again, we such detail in the Tanach about the world and about life and how to live it right down to naming the animals by name that are unclean with no foreknowledge of the wide world. Why would the salvation plan be so shrouded and open to interpretation?

I dunno. If it's so obvious, why are there Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews, all who interpret these "all-encompassing" writings differently?

and G-d's ging to give the instructions on proper bathrooming but not everliving salvation?

I'd hope so...one has to walk before one can run. I'd say going to the bathroom is a bit more elementary and immediate than everlasting life, wouldn't you? That being said, it's not as though Christians believe that the Old Testament is silent on salvation; hardly. We simply believe that the plan of salvation is completed through Christ.

[NoahideHiker]

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

I'm afraid you're referring to the Torah, not the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the complete Old Testament, as translated by Greek-speaking Jews.

The Jews only translated the Torah as the Talmud explains in Megillah 9a...

‘R. Judah said: When our teachers permitted Greek, they permitted it only for a scroll of the Torah’.1 This was on account of the incident related in connection with King Ptolemy,2 as it has been taught: ‘It is related of King Ptolemy that he brought together seventy-two elders and placed them in seventy-two [separate] rooms, without telling them why he had brought them together, and he went in to each one of them and said to him, Translate3 for me the Torah of Moses your master.

And Flavius Josephus concurs in the introduction of The Antiquity of the Jews...

Accordingly, I thought it became me both to imitate the generosity of our high priest, and to suppose there might even now be many lovers of learning like the king; for he did not obtain all our writings at that time; but those who were sent to Alexandria as interpreters, gave him only the books of the law, while there were a vast number of other matters in our sacred books.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

So then again, what is it?

The Jewish salvation plan is to seek G-d only, follow His laws and always turn back to Him when they sin, repent and ask forgiveness. Nowhere does it say anything like "Do as good as you can until this messiah comes to make it all easier.".

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

Ashamed how? It's speaking of something in the future, right? The very fact that it would say this implies that, if you don't believe the teachings of the Messiah, you will be ashamed. Are you suggesting that all this means is that you will feel bad?

It makes a lot more sense than to say being ashamed means you are damned but if you do believe you gain salvation. The most accurate Jewish translation doesn't even say, "shall not be ashamed" but says "the believer shall not hasten this".

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

So, when the Messiah comes, He will have no enemies? No one will oppose Him? Christians also believe that the world will come to a point where everyone on the earth will follow God (your quote of Jeremiah 31 puts it perfectly). However, we don't believe that's going to happen automatically. In Psalm 110:1-2, it says,
"The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.' The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!"

A bit later in the same Psalm it talks about Him executing kings in the day of His wrath and judging all nations. It's pretty obvious from the prophecies that the Messiah was not to be automatically received by all people; it explicitly says that He has enemies. So how exactly, would one be saved in the day of the Messiah's/God's wrath if one rejected the teachings of Messiah?

Psalms 110 isn't even messianic to the Jews. The second 'lord' is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'ladonee' which is never used for the sacred but only the profain and it means ' to my master'. The christian bible properly uses it in Gen. 24:54 and Gen32:4 but mistranslates in Psalms 110. I wonder why? But this is sidetracking us.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

I dunno. If it's so obvious, why are there Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews, all who interpret these "all-encompassing" writings differently?

The same way many christian denominations don't agree on some minutia, yet do on most core issues. But then again, if all the Jew agreed with each other and followed Torah then there wouldn't even be a need for the Moshiach. Again, getting sidetracked.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

I'd hope so...one has to walk before one can run. I'd say going to the bathroom is a bit more elementary and immediate than everlasting life, wouldn't you? That being said, it's not as though Christians believe that the Old Testament is silent on salvation; hardly. We simply believe that the plan of salvation is completed through Christ.

Yet wouldn't you agree salvation is way more important than bathrooming? i would think it would be at least note worthy. Probably more than once. We are told many times the simple plan to salvation in the Jewish scriptures and yet every single time it is explained not one single time does it say "...but a messiah will come and change all that.". So if salvation is completed through Jesus (and he is the only single way as he says) where does it say so in the Jewish scripture? If the Moshiach was to be the one single way I would think G-d would have repeated it over and over to make sure His beloved people didn't mis such a narrow gate.