"Why? Why? WHY?!" a direct quote from Ceridwen018 and many others (Jesus, moral)

[HOGCALLER]

SoulTYPE01,

You say: "This world will never be perfect. We all know that."

I say: Do you mind if I ask why you say that?

[SoulTYPE]

Well, if you want my opinion (surprised someone does), how are things going to miraculously change? The world had had it's downfalls since the beginning. Even back in the book of Genesis, things were not perfect. Adam and Eve would not have eaten the fruit. Temptaion by the serpent would not have occured.

At this day and age, we have come no further. Look at the middle east. People in Africa. Crisis and poverty everywhere. This world is still not perfect. What would it take to cure the world of this hassle? Attempted cure has been undertaken for thousands of years and to no avail. It won't be perfect, because there isn't technically a solution, unless you believe that God will come and do his thing.

[Master Vigil]

“You are the one with the unsupported definition that leads to unsupported and unsupportable ideas that you then try to force upon it [the Bible] and then you rant and rave that the Bible is the problem."

I actually feel it is the opposite. You try to provide a dictionary definition that proves my side, and then force upon me that the bible's definition is the right one. Here is my argument. Nothing in nature can be perfect. Or else it would be god. No matter how perfect it can be, if it isn't completely perfect, it is still imperfect. Your definition you gave said this...

There can be no mathematically perfect forms in nature; therefore to say that any actual circle is "perfect" can mean only that it approximates the geometric ideal of circularity, a quality that it can obviously have to a greater or lesser degree.

This is where I completely agree. But where your definition gets ambiguous is in the sentence afterwards.

where it is used to mean "ideal for the purposes."

So what is it, perfect, or ideal? That my friend is ambiguity. And that my friend is where you are commiting your fallacy. I am defending perfection as it is. Not the word.

"Would we want to arbitrarily start assigning definitions based on our own point of view or wouldn’t we instead try to determine what was being said based on the definitions we found in the transmissions themselves?"

Alrighty, again you help support my side. You are the one arbitrarily assigning definitions to a term which cannot have any more than one definition. Can we define perfection, or does perfection define itself? I think it defines itself.

Here's the thing. When I said don't attack me, perhaps I should of put forth some of descartes arguments for perfection, and some of the other great logicians definitions for it. But I felt that you knew them and could refute against them. That is what I was inviting you to do. I wanted to hear your refutation against their claims.

Your bibles definition is ambiguous because it allows the idea of perfection to be ambiguous.

"That is, a thing is “perfect” according to, or in relation to"

Wait a minute, did you say relation to? Ah, so you are allowing perfection to be relative. IT IS NOT!!!

Please explain to me the ambiguities in the above.

If something is relative than it contains ambiguities. There is your explanation.

BTW I do not count your opinion or the opinion of some other man as “factual data.”

Yet you use a definition that is clearly the opinion of another man.

"FYI, just about every other line in your syllogism is not correct."

Please show me where they are incorrect. Either show me that they are invalid or prove to me that the syllogisms themselves are invalid. If you cannot do this, then you cannot tell me that they are incorrect.

Does it matter how I worship? Or what I believe? No I don't think it does.

[HOGCALLER]

Ceridwen018,



You say: “Such a demonstration of power would rid the world of evil, and therefore do away with moral questions, etc.”



I say: would it really? I guess that is why everything is going so well in Iraq! This nation’s show of overwhelming power certainly has convinced all those terrorists of the error of their way, hasn’t it? NOT! I really do understand why you think that way and why you could possibly feel upset with a God that allows what you have seen or may have experienced (been there, done that). Both are normal and common reactions to the situation we all share in this world. Because the above conclusion is a commonly held one I discussed it in my original post, unfortunately not all in one place. Rather than repeating a big chunk of the post again for your benefit, may I suggest you review the information found under the following headings that are in my original post:



What went wrong and with what consequences? (post #3, first page of this thread)



But wait, there is more to it.



God’s provides an early answer.



What has been proved?



Will it ever be different?



The Bible engenders real hope for the future.



You say: “Then why can't he give us both? Or why doesn't he give us both?”



I say: he can and has said that he will do so and as soon as the issues have been settled beyond all doubt. I believe that it can happen any day now.



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[HOGCALLER]

Master Vigil,



I say this with all due respect, you and your “great logicians” are entitled to think and believe in any ‘absolute’ you wish. No doubt there are many, maybe even most, on this site that will agree with you. Many, maybe even most, outside this site and I do not share those views and beliefs and therefore do not understand much of what you are saying. That is why I have asked you to ‘explain’ and to ‘support’ and to ‘define.’ Much of what you say seems to me to be nonsensical because I do not share your ‘goofy glasses.’ I am sure the same is true of things I say and therefore I have tried my best to ‘explain,’ ‘support’ and ‘define’ and to provide you with my ‘goofy glasses.’ You do not accept my definitions; you do not accept the dictionary definitions. That leaves me with no ‘language’ with which to communicate with you and when I ask you to provide some help in that regard, you refuse! So I give up!



Therefore, I come to the conclusion that your only purpose here is to attack any and every idea that does not agree with yours and that you want do that ‘just because you can’ while providing nothing of any value in exchange. What’s the point? We are pretty much right back where we started, aren’t we?



“Seez who?”



“Seez me!”



“Oh yeah!”



“Yeah!”



The above seems to be a very common way of doing things now days and, in my opinion, it is very sad.






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[Master Vigil]

All I am trying to explain is that perfection cannot be relative. Sure one can say that you are perfect for a job. But that does not make you perfect. You are arguing that it still makes you perfect for the job, but that still does not make you PERFECT. You can die, you have illness, you are imperfect. That is all I am saying. I think perfect is god, you think everything can be perfect in their own little ways. Again, you give me definitions that prove my point. What can't you see? I have given you all the proof you need? We all are entitled to our opinions yes, and we are all entitled to be wrong. However, you have not given me any proof that says I am wrong. You have only helped me to prove I am right.

[HOGCALLER]

SoulTYPE01,



I know that I step on peoples toes sometimes, even though most of the time I do not mean to, so your saying anything at all ‘speaks volumes’ to me.



Your opinions and comments and questions are of value to me, and, in my opinion, to the many readers who never say anything. So I thank you.



I have no idea what you think and believe. I have no real idea what you think of what I have said. If I had to guess I would say you don't agree with it. Since I have made that guess let me proceed under that assumption. You can always correct me if I am wrong.



You say: “how are things going to miraculously change?” And, “It won't be perfect, because there isn't technically a solution, unless you believe that God will come and do his thing.”



I say: exactly! Isn’t that a wonderful prospect?



Again, proceeding under the assumption that you don't agree with what I have said and, additionally, conceding for the sake of argument that everything I have said is based on a “fiction or half-truth,” I say to you that I have optimism regarding the future that stems from what I believe. That belief helps make my life a little more bearable, a little better. To me, that's not a bad thing, even if the intellectual elite accuses me of being “blissfully ignorant.”



I am not saying that other’s beliefs do not help them in the same way. But it does seem to me that as society has become less religious and more secular it has also become less optimistic and more negative in its approach to everything. True, that is only my opinion. Maybe you agree maybe you don't. Feel free to express your opinion; do I have an ‘unreasonable’ or ‘unrealistic’ view of things? I know some will say I do, what do you say? And what do you think of the prospect of God coming and doing ‘his thing?’


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[SoulTYPE]

it is a prospect for some, Hog. If it happens, THEN I will believe it. however, I will not disrespect the fact that you DO believe it will happen.

Cheers, hog.

I won't demand, but request: Possible to use a smaller font?

[HOGCALLER]

SoulTYPE01,

I have bad eyes and use large fonts to reduce strain. I rarely use the tools available in the 'advanced' mode, I just copy and paste from Word. I have not tried this time, but in past threads using those tools was frustating. But I will see if I can make a change. Again, I have been just been pasting and the font was selected for me I guess based on the font used in Word, Verdana 12 PT. I don't normally do much reading in other threads because of my eyes. Even in this thread, I copy replies and then paste into Word and then change up to the above mentioned font. Maybe I can change the font in Word before I copy and paste and then change it back before I save it.

Somebody suggest a font and size.


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[SoulTYPE]

I apologize. This I did not know. HogCall dude, please accept my apology. Have some coins then.