Do Creationists Believe in Dinosaurs? (Earth, Adam and Eve, verse)

[Ceridwen018]

The ark by the specifications given in the Bible was over 1.5 million cubic feet.

Mister Emu, I'm afraid that still wouldn't be enough.

[Druidus]

The ark by the specifications given in the Bible was over 1.5 million cubic feet.

It says nothing about cubic feet, only "cubits" which we have no idea about. Even if it was 1.5 million feet,that wouldn't be enough, even if you covered just the animals alive today. The food requirements for the elephants alone would be enourmous! I don't doubt that the flood happened, I just believe it was a massive regional flood, and not worldwide.

Now, there have been discoveries of footprints of both humans and dinosaurs found in the same geological timezone. Anyways, some interesting things:

The Ica Stones
Beginning in the 1930s, the father of Dr. Javier Cabrera, Cultural Anthropologist for Ica, Peru, discovered many hundreds of ceremonial burial stones in the tombs of the ancient Incas. Dr. Cabrera, carrying on his father's work, has collected more than 1,100 of these andesite stones, which are estimated to be between 500 and 1,500 years old and have become known collectively as the Ica Stones. The stones bear etchings, many of which are sexually graphic (which was common to the culture), some picture idols and others depict such practices as open-heart surgery and brain transplants. The most astonishing etchings, however, clearly represent dinosaurs - brontosaurs, triceratops (see photo), stegosaurus and pterosaurs. While skeptics consider the Ica Stones a hoax, their authenticity has neither been proved or disproved.

The Coso Artifact
While mineral hunting in the mountains of California near Olancha during the winter of 1961, Wallace Lane, Virginia Maxey and Mike Mikesell found a rock, among many others, that they thought was a geode - a good addition for their gem shop. Upon cutting it open, however, Mikesell found an object inside that seemed to be made of white porcelain. In the center was a shaft of shiny metal. Experts estimated that it should have taken about 500,000 years for this fossil-encrusted nodule to form, yet the object inside was obviously of sophisticated human manufacture. Further investigation revealed that the porcelain was surround by a hexagonal casing, and an x-ray revealed a tiny spring at one end. Some who have examined the evidence say it looks very much like a modern-day spark plug. How did it get inside a 500,000-year-old rock?

Out-of-Place Metal Objects
Humans were not even around 65 million years ago, never mind people who could work metal. So then how does science explain semi-ovoid metallic tubes dug out of 65-million-year-old Cretaceous chalk in France? In 1885, a block of coal was broken open to find a metal cube obviously worked by intelligent hands. In 1912, employees at an electric plant broke apart a large chunk of coal out of which fell an iron pot! A nail was found embedded in a sandstone block from the Mesozoic Era. And there are many, many more such anomalies.

What are we to make of these finds? There are several possibilities:

• Intelligent humans date back much, much further than we realize.
• Other intelligent beings and civilizations existed on earth far beyond our recorded history.
• Our dating methods are completely inaccurate, and that stone, coal and fossils form much more rapidly than we now estimate.

In any case, these examples - and there are many more - should prompt any curious and open-minded scientist to reexamine and rethink the true history of life on earth.

[Druidus]

The Mysterious Ica Stones

From Stephen Wagner,
Your Guide to Paranormal Phenomena.
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Do these strange artifacts challenge modern paleontology?

THERE ARE EXPLORERS who believe in the possibility that some dinosaurs somehow survived extinction 60 million years ago and continue to live in isolated, largely unexplored areas of African rain forest. The only evidence for their existence, however, are stories told by natives of the region who claim to have seen such fantastic creatures. Perhaps new expeditions to these remote areas will someday find better, harder evidence, if there's any to be found.



But what if there were already better evidence that at least some dinosaurs had survived long enough to coexist with humans? Evidence better than just stories. What if early humans had actually etched pictures of dinosaurs on rock faces. That would constitute pretty good proof, wouldn't it?

Such rocks exist.zSB(3,3);if(!z336){var zIsb=gEI("adsb");if(zIsb){zIsb.style.display="inli ne";zIsb.style.height="0px";zIsb.style.width="0px" ;}var zIss=gEI("adss");if(zIss){zIss.style.display="inli ne";zIss.style.height="0px";zIss.style.width="0px" ;}} Known collectively as the Ica Stones (they are found in Ica, Peru), these rocks, varying in size from that of a baseball to twice that of a basketball, are hand-etched with pictures of primitive fish, dinosaurs and Indians using what appear to be tools of advanced technology. The problem is, the age of these rocks cannot be verified. But they are intriguing, and they have delighted tourists and mystified researchers for decades.

Where Did They Come From?

The Ica Stones first came to the attention of the scientific community in 1966 when Dr. Javier Cabrera, a local physician, received a small, carved rock for his birthday from a poor native. The carving on the rock looked ancient to Dr. Cabrera, but intrigued him because it seemed to depict a primitive fish. Hearing that the doctor was interested in the stone, local natives began to bring him more, which they collected from a river bank (not far from the famous Nazca lines). This soon developed into a vast collection of more than 15,000 stones, many etched with impossible scenes. Whereas it might be difficult to prove that the fish represented a long-extinct species, as Dr. Cabrera thought, other scenes carved on other stones are not so ambiguous. They clearly depict such dinosaurs as triceratops, stegosaurus, apatosaurus and human figures riding on the backs of flying pterodactyls. What's more, some of the scenes are of men hunting and killing dinosaurs. Others show men watching the heavens through what look like telescopes, performing open-heart surgery and cesarean section births.

How could this be? Modern man is only about 2 million years old and dinosaurs are thought to have become extinct about 60 million years ago. There are three possibilities:

• a human civilization existed during the age of the dinosaurs
• dinosaurs survived to coexist with man
• the stones are an elaborate hoax.

The stones themselves are composed of andesite, a very hard mineral that would make etching quite difficult with primitive tools. They are covered with a natural varnish that is created by bacteria over thousands of years. The etching is made by scraping away this dark varnish to reveal the lighter mineral beneath. According to some reports, examinations of the stones show that the grooves of the etchings also bear traces of additional varnish, however, indicating that they are very old. Ica natives had been selling such stones to the tourist trade. In fact, when one man was arrested for selling them (if the stones are genuine artifacts, they would be the property of the government and therefore illegal to sell), he confessed to carving the images himself. Those who believe the carvings are authentic suspect that the confession was made to avoid jail. Yet natives of the area can be seen today making etchings on stones in the style of the Ica Stones to sell to tourists. But the distinction between their product and the "genuine" stones is that the newly etched stones clearly scrape away all of the varnish.





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The Julesrod Collection The Ica Stones aren't the only controversial artifacts that seem to depict dinosaurs. About 50 years ago, an amateur archeologist named Val Julesrod began collecting clay figurines that had been unearthed in Mexico, and have been radiocarbon dated to be about 3,500 years old. While most of the figurines (there are more than 30,000 of them) are stylized human heads, some are of animals that strongly resemble camels, elephants and horses – animals that did not exist in Mexico 3,500 years ago. Others dated at 1,500 years old are monstrous forms that could be interpreted as dinosaurs. Or are they just mythical creatures?

[quote] 500 MILLION OLD FOOTPRINTS DISCOVERED
What may be the oldest fossil footprint yet found was discovered in June of 1968 by William J. Meister, an amateur fossil collector.
This print is estimated to be around 300 to 600 MILLION years old

A sandaled shoe crushing a trilobite; is this proof that there were previous civilisations on earth, or visitors from another world?

Meister made this remarkable find during a rock and fossil hunting expedition to Antelope Spring, 43 miles west of Delta, Utah. He was accompanied by his wife and two daughters. The party had already discovered several small fossils of trilobites when Meister split open a two inch thick slab of rock with his hammer and discovered this outstanding print. The rock fell open "like a book", revealing

on one side the footprint of a human with trilobites right in the footprint itself. The other half of the rock slab showed an almost perfect mold of the footprint and fossils. Amazingly the human was wearing a sandal!

Trilobites were small marine invertebrates, the relatives of crabs and shrimps, that flourished for some 320 million years before becoming extinct 280 million years ago. Humans are currently thought to have emerged between 1 and 2 million years ago and to have started wearing well-shaped footwear for no more than a few thousand years.



The sandal that crushed a living trilobite was 10 1/2 inches long and 3 1/2 inches wide; the heel is indented slightly more than the sole, as a human shoe print would be. Meister took the rock to Melvin Cook, a professor of metallurgy at the University of Utah, who advised him to show the specimen to the university geologists. When Meister was unable to find a geologist willking to examine the print, he went to a local newspaper, The Deseret News. Before long, the find recieved national publicity.

On July 20, 1968, the Antelope Spring site was examined by Dr. Clifford Burdick, a consulting geologist from Tuscon, Arizona, who soon found the impression of a child's foot in a bed of shale. ``The impression", he said, ``was about six inches in length, with the toes spreading, as if the child had never yet worn shoes, which compress the toes. There does not appear to be much of an arch, and the big toe is not prominent." Dr. Burdick stated:

The rock chanced to fracture along the front of the toes before the fossil print was found. On a cross section the fabric of the rock stands out in fine laminations, or bedding planes. Where the toes pressed into the soft material, the laminations were bowed downward from the horizontal, indicating a weight that had been pressed into the mud.

In August of 1968 Mr. Dean Bitter, an educator in the Salt Lake City public schools system, claimed to have discovered two more prints of shoes or sandals in the Antelope Spring area. According to professor Cook, no trilobites were injured by these footfalls, but a small trilobite was found near the prints in the same rock, indicating the small sea creature and the sandaled wanderer might have been contemporaries.

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[Druidus]

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Many discoveries of ancient artifacts were made under Table Mountain in Tuolumne County, California. One of the more well-attested cases is that of a mortar and pestle found by superintendent J. H. Neale of the Montezuma Tunnel Company. The stratigraphy at Table Mountain consists of a latite cap dated to 9 million years, andesitic tuffs, breccias, and sediments going back to 21.1 million years, rhyolite tuffs as old as 33.2 million years, and prevolcanic auriferous gravels, some as ancient as 55.0 million years. What follows are some excerpts describing this discovery made in the auriferous gravels of Table Mountain, dated from 33.2 to 55 million years old. (read more)




On August 2, 1890, J. H. Neale signed the following statement about discoveries made by him: "In 1877 Mr. J. H. Neale was superintendent of the Montezuma Tunnel Company, and ran the Montezuma tunnel into the gravel underlying the lava of Table Mountain, Tuolumne County. . . . At a distance of between 1400 and 1500 feet from the mouth of the tunnel, or of between 200 and 300 feet beyond the edge of the solid lava, Mr. Neale saw several spear-heads, of some dark rock and nearly one foot in length.

On exploring further, he himself found a small mortar three or four inches in diameter and of irregular shape. This was discovered within a foot or two of the spear-heads. He then found a large well-formed pestle, now the property of Dr. R. I. Bromley, and near by a large and very regular mortar, also at present the property of Dr. Bromley." This last mortar and pestle appear on your right.

Neale's affidavit continued: "All of these relics were found the same afternoon, and were all within a few feet of one another and close to the bed-rock, perhaps within a foot of it. Mr. Neale declares that it is utterly impossible that these relics can have reached the position in which they were found excepting at the time the gravel was deposited, and before the lava cap formed. There was not the slightest trace of any disturbance of the mass or of any natural fissure into it by which access could have been obtained either there or in the neighborhood" (Sinclair 1908, pp. 117–118). The position of the artifacts in gravel "close to the bed-rock" at Tuolumne Table Mountain indicates they were 33–55 million years old. . . .

In a paper read before the American Geological Society and published in its journal, geologist George F. Becker (1891, pp. 192–193) said: "It would have been more satisfactory to me individually if I had myself dug out these implements, but I am unable to discover any reason why Mr. Neale's statement is not exactly as good evidence to the rest of the world as my own would be.

He was as competent as I to detect any fissure from the surface or any ancient workings, which the miner recognizes instantly and dreads profoundly. Some one may possibly suggest that Mr. Neale's workmen 'planted' the implements, but no one familiar with mining will entertain such a suggestion for a moment. . . . The auriferous gravel is hard picking, in large part it requires blasting, and even a very incompetent supervisor could not possibly be deceived in this way. . . . In short, there is, in my opinion, no escape from the conclusion that the implements mentioned in Mr. Neale's statement actually occurred near the bottom of the gravels, and that they were deposited where they were found at the same time with the adjoining pebbles and matrix."

[Druidus]

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynam...Fexpo2002.html

I think we can at lewast admit the possibility of ancient humans existing. However, this does put forth interesting problems.

[Jaiket]

This is a beautiful thread. Absolute class. Thanks for the chuckle, I would award you with frubals but I haven't the slightest idea of how. Cheers anyway.

As for the question, I think the answer goes: God did it. End of story.

[painted wolf]

I often wonder why "anchient people" always seem to portray dinosaurs as how they were thought to look in the decade they were discovered in. You never see a feathered dinosaur portrayed though it looks like most carnivourus ones had them. You also see a lot of mix and matching going on. Jurassic stegosaurs with Cretacious Triceratops. Animals that would never meet mixing on these 'artifacts'. Makes you wonder eh?

wa:do

[linwood]

Didn`t I just read somewhere that remains were found recently that preliminary dating showed humans were around far earlier than originally thought?

I know that sounds stupid..let me try an dfind something on it.