Opposites: Life And Death (reincarnation, mission, doctrine, experience, philosophy)

[Druidus]

I'd just like to throw a topic up for debate, and I'm going to use my good friend Socrates to do it. This is quoted from Plato's "Phaedo", and it is some of the words of Socrates before he was executed.

Whether the souls of men after death are or are not in the world
below, is a question which may be argued in this manner: The ancient
doctrine of which I have been speaking affirms that they go from
this into the other world, and return hither, and are born from the
dead. Now if this be true, and the living come from the dead, then our
souls must be in the other world, for if not, how could they be born
again? And this would be conclusive, if there were any real evidence
that the living are only born from the dead; but if there is no
evidence of this, then other arguments will have to be adduced.

That is very true, replied Cebes.

Then let us consider this question, not in relation to man only, but
in relation to animals generally, and to plants, and to everything
of which there is generation, and the proof will be easier. Are not
all things which have opposites generated out of their opposites? I
mean such things as good and evil, just and unjust-and there are
innumerable other opposites which are generated out of opposites.
And I want to show that this holds universally of all opposites; I
mean to say, for example, that anything which becomes greater must
become greater after being less.

True.

And that which becomes less must have been once greater and then
become less.

Yes.

And the weaker is generated from the stronger, and the swifter
from the slower.

Very true.

And the worse is from the better, and the more just is from the more
unjust.

Of course.

And is this true of all opposites? and are we convinced that all
of them are generated out of opposites?

Yes.

And in this universal opposition of all things, are there not also
two intermediate processes which are ever going on, from one to the
other, and back again; where there is a greater and a less there is
also an intermediate process of increase and diminution, and that
which grows is said to wax, and that which decays to wane?

Yes, he said.

And there are many other processes, such as division and
composition, cooling and heating, which equally involve a passage into
and out of one another. And this holds of all opposites, even though
not always expressed in words-they are generated out of one another,
and there is a passing or process from one to the other of them?

Very true, he replied.

Well, and is there not an opposite of life, as sleep is the opposite
of waking?

True, he said.

And what is that?

Death, he answered.

And these, then, are generated, if they are opposites, the one
from the other, and have there their two intermediate processes also?

Of course.

Now, said Socrates, I will analyze one of the two pairs of opposites
which I have mentioned to you, and also its intermediate processes,
and you shall analyze the other to me. The state of sleep is opposed
to the state of waking, and out of sleeping waking is generated, and
out of waking, sleeping, and the process of generation is in the one
case falling asleep, and in the other waking up. Are you agreed
about that?

Quite agreed.

Then suppose that you analyze life and death to me in the same
manner. Is not death opposed to life?

Yes.

And they are generated one from the other?

Yes.

What is generated from life?

Death.

And what from death?

I can only say in answer-life.

Then the living, whether things or persons, Cebes, are generated
from the dead?

That is clear, he replied.

Then the inference is, that our souls are in the world below?

That is true.

And one of the two processes or generations is visible-for surely
the act of dying is visible?

Surely, he said.

And may not the other be inferred as the complement of nature, who
is not to be supposed to go on one leg only? And if not, a
corresponding process of generation in death must also be assigned
to her?

Certainly, he replied.

And what is that process?

Revival.

And revival, if there be such a thing, is the birth of the dead into
the world of the living?

Quite true.

Then there is a new way in which we arrive at the inference that the
living come from the dead, just as the dead come from the living;
and if this is true, then the souls of the dead must be in some
place out of which they come again. And this, as I think, has been
satisfactorily proved.

Yes, Socrates, he said; all this seems to flow necessarily out of
our previous admissions.

And that these admissions are not unfair, Cebes, he said, may be
shown, as I think, in this way: If generation were in a straight
line only, and there were no compensation or circle in nature, no turn
or return into one another, then you know that all things would at
last have the same form and pass into the same state, and there
would be no more generation of them.

What do you mean? he said.

A simple thing enough, which I will illustrate by the case of sleep,
he replied. You know that if there were no compensation of sleeping
and waking, the story of the sleeping Endymion would in the end have
no meaning, because all other things would be asleep, too, and he
would not be thought of. Or if there were composition only, and no
division of substances, then the chaos of Anaxagoras would come again.
And in like manner, my dear Cebes, if all things which partook of life
were to die, and after they were dead remained in the form of death,
and did not come to life again, all would at last die, and nothing
would be alive-how could this be otherwise? For if the living spring
from any others who are not the dead, and they die, must not all
things at last be swallowed up in death?

There is no escape from that, Socrates, said Cebes; and I think that
what you say is entirely true.

Do you agree with Socrates? Can this be a case for reincarnation? I, too, can't manage to think of anything that is not created of it's opposite. So, does that apply to Life and Death, as well? If so, are there intermediaries? What are they? Can the cycle of life and death be stopped, and stay in one realm, life or death, or, indeed, the intermediaries? What are your thoughts?

[Mr Spinkles]

Hmm...I think Socrates is right to an extent...life comes from death, organisms come from inorganic material, inorganic material forms other organisms. Of course, everything he says here stems from the initial assumption that souls exist in the first place....if we accept that premise, I think he makes a beautiful arguement.

[Ceridwen018]

Socrates is onto something, but I don't completely agree. Even if souls existed, that doesn't mean that living ones have to come from dead ones. In my opinion, death defines life, it doesn't 'generate' it. Because we have death we must also have not-death, or life. Let's take his example of the runners for instance--If there was some guy who was a really fast runner, then everyone who was not as fast as him would be called slower, thereby defining the idea of something being slower. However, the 'slower' can exist without the 'faster', ie, the 'faster' is not necessary for the existence of the 'slower' and therefore cannot be said to 'generate' it--it merely defines/specifies it. If the 'faster' did not exist, then the 'slower' would cease to exist because it would become the 'faster'.....okaaaayy, so obviously the 'faster' is necessary to the existence of the 'slower'...I change my mind. But what if the 'slower' did not exist? Well, then the 'faster' would cease to exist as well, and we'd be left with neutrality.

So back to the life/death thing--life can exist without death, and death can exist without life, but we need both in order to be able to define either. For instance, if life did not exist, only death, we obviously wouldn't have anything which we could refer to as not-death. Actually, we wouldn't be able to refer to anything as anything because we'd all be dead Anywho, think of it this way: If you were trying to explain (in words only) what the color black was like to someone who didn't know the names of colors, you would need other colors to compare the color black to. However, if everything was black, you wouldn't have anything to compare it to, and so it would be undefinable.

Does that make any sense? I'm really rambling and I feel like I'm way off topic--I wish Socrates were here.....

[Paraprakrti]

Life and death are not opposites. The opposite of death is birth. So what is born, dies, and what dies is born. The life is the factor that plays the game of birth and death.

[Ceridwen018]

So, does that mean that you believe in reincarnation?

I don't understand what you mean about life being the factor that plays the game of death and birth.

[Paraprakrti]

birth and death exist because there is life. Birth and death are opposites. So if we are to apply the philosophy above, death comes from birth and birth comes from death. The factor that causes this cycle is the life itself. Without life there is no birth and there is no death.

[Paraprakrti]

There is a short duration period between birth and death in which we experience that life as it is known to these material senses. But it is that same life principle that consituted the birth in the first place. And when that specific body is worn out, the life principle takes shelter in another body that suits its ego.

[Ceridwen018]

There is a short duration period between birth and death in which we experience that life as it is known to these material senses.

If we experience it with our senses, then why don't we remember it?

[Paraprakrti]

I think you have misunderstood what I have said. That short duration is now. Right now as you read this post and later when you type a reply, that is you experiencing that life via the material senses. Now, your ability to remember may vary. Some people have great memories while others don't. I can't remember what I did when I was two years old, but I am pretty sure I was around then.

[Ceridwen018]

Ok I think I see what you mean. So right now,