Baha'i views on Salvation (Jesus, Kingdom, reincarnation, followers, grace)

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Originally Posted by JayHawes

I also believe that satan sends and decieves "prophets"

Not in the Baha'i view!

A Divine Messenger (not to be confused with a regular prophet) is above and beyond mere human fallibilities and posesses a God-given perfection!

In the Baha'i view God is Supreme and Unrivaled, with no rival! Thus there is no "devil."

And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature. Again, this lower nature doesn't apply to Divine Messengers.

So while you're welcome to your opinions, we see all this as not being a problem.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

[JayHawes]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings!



Not in the Baha'i view!

A Divine Messenger (not to be confused with a regular prophet) is above and beyond mere human fallibilities and posesses a God-given perfection!

And in the Baha'i view God is Supreme and Unrivaled, with no rival! Thus there is no "devil."

And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature. Again, this lower nature doesn't apply to Divine Messengers.

So while you're welcome to your opinions, we see all this as not being a problem.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Who then are these divine messangers? Do you equate perfection to more than just Jesus Christ?

Satan is not just our animal nature, Revelation chapter 12 makes this quite clear when a being named satan declares war on heaven and looses.

Re 12:9 -And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And what does this mean if satan does not exist?

2co 11:14 -And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by JayHawes

Who then are these divine messangers? Do you equate perfection to more than just Jesus Christ?

Satan is not just our animal nature, Revelation chapter 12 makes this quite clear when a being named satan declares war on heaven and looses.

Re 12:9 -And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And what does this mean if satan does not exist?

2co 11:14 -And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Yes, we equate all the Divine Messengers with Perfection: Abraham, Moses, Noah, Hud, salih, Krsna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha`u'llah.

Yes, satan (note the small letter to begin the word) exists only within ourselves. It is our base nature, that whichtempts us away from our Godly nature--a powerful force indeed, on the scal of one human being at a time. "Satan" depicted in Revelations and other places is a metaphoric thing, not an entity. There is no "War in Heaven" other than a metaphor. WHo can stand against God? There's no logic in the insistence that "Satan" exists. God is either God, or He is not. If, as I believe, He is GOD, then He has no rivals or equals. If there are no rivals nor equals then there can be no war in heaven. It is only the war within ME, or YOU, that is of any importance.

Revelations was a metaphoric vision about the state of the world and Christianity while John lived and breathed. To give it any more weight than that denies the Dominion of God.

Regards,
Scott

[JayHawes]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Yes, we equate all the Divine Messengers with Perfection: Abraham, Moses, Noah, Hud, salih, Krsna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha`u'llah.

Yes, satan (note the small letter to begin the word) exists only within ourselves. It is our base nature, that whichtempts us away from our Godly nature--a powerful force indeed, on the scal of one human being at a time. "Satan" depicted in Revelations and other places is a metaphoric thing, not an entity. There is no "War in Heaven" other than a metaphor. WHo can stand against God? There's no logic in the insistence that "Satan" exists. God is either God, or He is not. If, as I believe, He is GOD, then He has no rivals or equals. If there are no rivals nor equals then there can be no war in heaven. It is only the war within ME, or YOU, that is of any importance.

Revelations was a metaphoric vision about the state of the world and Christianity while John lived and breathed. To give it any more weight than that denies the Dominion of God.

Regards,
Scott

You're one wise 60+ year old man.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by JayHawes

You're one wise 60+ year old man.

I assume the irony drive is engaged and you're heading for the first star from the right?

regards,
Scott

[JayHawes]

Satan is a spiritual entity, and being that wages war within us. He is called Belial, the god of this World. Lucifer, who was an angel at one time, rebelled against God, and fell to earth (Isaiah 14:12). This very same thing happens in the passage descrbing the fall of Satan in Revelation 12. For it to be just a war within ourselves, we would have to ignore the clear fact that Lucifer, and angel fell from Heaven as Satan, a liar and an adversary.

Jesus himself called God his Father (John 13:13, 20:17). We understand clearly that the Father, being God is a real being. Jeuss tough goes further, he said:


Joh 8:44 -Ye (Jesus' Jewish accusers) are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here this same Jesus that called God his father calls Satan their father. He clearly expresses his understanding of the spiritual world, and a real being called the devil.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by JayHawes

Satan is a spiritual entity, and being that wages war within us. He is called Belial, the god of this World. Lucifer, who was an angel at one time, rebelled against God, and fell to earth (Isaiah 14:12). This very same thing happens in the passage descrbing the fall of Satan in Revelation 12. For it to be just a war within ourselves, we would have to ignore the clear fact that Lucifer, and angel fell from Heaven as Satan, a liar and an adversary.

Jesus himself called God his Father (John 13:13, 20:17). We understand clearly that the Father, being God is a real being. Jeuss tough goes further, he said:


Joh 8:44 -Ye (Jesus' Jewish accusers) are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Here this same Jesus that called God his father calls Satan their father. He clearly expresses his understanding of the spiritual world, and a real being called the devil.

"You have asked why it was necessary for the soul that was from God to make this journey back to God. Would you like to understand the reality of this question just as I teach it or do you wish to hear it as the world teaches it? -- for if I should answer you according to the latter way, this would be but imitation and would not make the subject clear.

The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination. If you should leave a man uneducated and barbarous in the wilds of Africa, would there be any doubt about his remaining ignorant? God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.
It is evident therefore that man is in need of divine education and inspiration; that the spirit and bounties of God are essential to his development. That is to say, the teachings of Christ and the prophets are necessary for his education and guidance. Why? Because they are the divine gardeners who till the earth of human hearts and minds. They educate man, uproot the weeds, burn the thorns and remodel the waste places into gardens and orchards where fruitful trees grow. The wisdom and purpose of their training is that man must pass from degree to degree of progressive unfoldment until perfection is attained. For instance, if a man should live his entire life in one city, he cannot gain a knowledge of the whole world. To become perfectly informed he must visit other cities, see the mountains and valleys, cross the rivers and traverse the plains. In other words, without progressive and universal education, perfection will not be attained. 78
Man must walk in many paths and be subjected to various processes in his evolution upward. Physically he is not born in full stature but passes through consecutive stages of foetus, infant, childhood, youth, maturity and old age. Suppose he had the power to remain young throughout his life. He then would not understand the meaning of old age and could not believe it existed. If he could not realize the condition of old age he would not know that he was young. He would not know the difference between young and old without experiencing the old. Unless you have passed through the state of infancy how would you know this was an infant beside you? If there was no wrong how would you recognize the right? If it were not for sin how would you appreciate virtue? If evil deeds were unknown how could you commend good actions? If sickness did not exist how would you understand health? Evil is non-existent; it is the absence of good; sickness is the loss of health; poverty the lack of riches. When wealth disappears you are poor; you look within the treasure box but find nothing there. Without knowledge there is ignorance; therefore ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge. Death is the absence of life. Therefore on the one hand we have existence; on the other, nonexistence, negation or absence of existence.
Briefly; the journey of the soul is necessary. The pathway of life is the road which leads to divine knowledge and attainment. Without training and guidance the soul could never progress beyond the conditions of its lower nature which is ignorant and defective. 79 "
(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

[lew0049]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Yes, we equate all the Divine Messengers with Perfection: Abraham, Moses, Noah, Hud, salih, Krsna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha`u'llah.

Yes, satan (note the small letter to begin the word) exists only within ourselves. It is our base nature, that whichtempts us away from our Godly nature--a powerful force indeed, on the scal of one human being at a time. "Satan" depicted in Revelations and other places is a metaphoric thing, not an entity. There is no "War in Heaven" other than a metaphor. WHo can stand against God? There's no logic in the insistence that "Satan" exists. God is either God, or He is not. If, as I believe, He is GOD, then He has no rivals or equals. If there are no rivals nor equals then there can be no war in heaven. It is only the war within ME, or YOU, that is of any importance.

Revelations was a metaphoric vision about the state of the world and Christianity while John lived and breathed. To give it any more weight than that denies the Dominion of God.

Regards,
Scott

Its interesting that some of "Divine" Messengers on this list teach of only one God and others teach of many Gods. Some teach that simply doing good deeds will get you to the next life while others say that through Jesus is the only way. Reincarnation, etc...
I am lost as to which messages you accept from the various messengers? Because if they came from God, then one wouldn't teach about these differences. Just curious.