Catholic Church The First (Jesus Christ, Earth, Messiah, Kingdom, tradition)

[UnityNow101]

TruthInCatholicism....Wouldn't the Eastern Orthodox Church have just as much right to claim that they are the first just as the Catholic Church does?

[Mister Emu]

The point is: unless the scriptures say CATHOLIC, we shouldn't assume that it means Catholic.

Pete, maybe you missed my last question or it slipped your mind...
Are you saying that the Church of Jesus is not a universal Church(and therefore Catholic)?

[PHOTOTAKER]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

So somehow, our Lord who sees all things, went from calling Jesus a "rock" to "Satan"? This only makes sense if the "rock" were something else, like the truth Peter uttered.

the "rock" that Jesus was speeking about was himself, not peter... see Isiah 8:14 also the passage of "rock" is a pricable of haveing faith in Christ and have a testamony or know though the power of the holy ghost that "Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God" becouse of this testamony a verse or so later he is given the presthood "to bind on earth and in heaven" baptism would be part of this power if it was not so than the atonement is for nothing. if any church or any body belives that Peter is the foundation of a church then they have been decived the foundation of the church is Chirst the son God and only though him cankind all man be saved.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

Pete, maybe you missed my last question or it slipped your mind...
Are you saying that the Church of Jesus is not a universal Church(and therefore Catholic)?

The ecclesia is SPIRITUAL. While there might be many churches who want to CLAIM primacy, it's all a matter of SPIRITUAL PRIDE and ARROGANCE. Being a part of this ecclesia has nothing to do with belonging to any sect of Christianity. You belong by having your heart right with God.

I thought I had addressed this earlier, but perhaps I could have been more direct.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by PHOTOTAKER

the "rock" that Jesus was speeking about was himself,

Amen bro, and the scriptures (should one bother to read them) confirm that the Apostles believed this to be true:

I Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. NIV

I Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame." NIV

Neither Paul nor Peter were referring to Peter being either the rock or stone.

[Mister Emu]

The ecclesia is SPIRITUAL. While there might be many churches who want to CLAIM primacy, it's all a matter of SPIRITUAL PRIDE and ARROGANCE. Being a part of this ecclesia has nothing to do with belonging to any sect of Christianity. You belong by having your heart right with God.

I thought I had addressed this earlier, but perhaps I could have been more direct.

I wasn't refering to any of the Apostolic(sp) churches, but rather the meaning of the word catholic. Universal.

I was responding to this statement:

No where is Catholic or Universal mentioned here.

Which I took as an objection to the descriptor "Catholic" or "Universal" being used in regards to the Church of Jesus.

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

Not really interpretational chaos, but search for the truth. For a very long time, the Catholic Church leaders were the only ones able to interpret the Scriptures or even had a copy of them. So it was what they said or nothing at all. Most of the population was illiterate. But now, we have the KJV Scripture in our hands and see no mention of the Catholic Church. Sorry for our inability to see what is not there. What are we supposed to do?

OK. I'm back after Pascha (Easter) and I find this thread. I'm not going to reply to all of it but I have to reply to this bit just because it's so incredibly western European in outlook. Why does everyone assume that all of Christendom always looked like relatively late western Europe (and I'll get to another assumption later)?

The east was very different. Not only was the Empire the most literate society prior to the modern era (with people apparently arguing theology in the forum - hence the number of heresies arising in the east), but in the whole east there was the tradition from time immemorial that worship should take place in the vernacular. What was the first thing Sts. Cyril and Methodius did when evangelising the Slavs? Translate the Scriptures, inventing a whole new script to be able to do so. The result of this was that there never was a time prior to the middle ages when the Church had a stranglehold on Scripture as suggested above and even then, it was a phenomenon confined to the western church. Only the See of Rome ever had such a peculiar view of what languages should be used.

Now I shall come to the next assumption which I see playing through this thread - that the Roman Catholic Church is the Catholic Church as described by the likes of St. Ignatius. I can see no question at all, no alternative to the idea, that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, but I would strongly dispute the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is actually that Church.

James

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

TruthInCatholicism....Wouldn't the Eastern Orthodox Church have just as much right to claim that they are the first just as the Catholic Church does?

We are the Catholic Church - we are the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because westerners consider Catholic and RC to be synonyms that we do the same. We don't call ourselves the Eastern Orthodox Church, that's a name foisted on us by westerners.

James

[UnityNow101]

Sorry James for my ignorance of the Eastern Orthodox Faith...So the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church share the distinction of being the true Church? Then why the schism?