Catholic Church The First (Jesus Christ, Earth, Messiah, Kingdom, tradition)

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

So real presence as in physical presence or in spiritual presence?

Both! It sin't either or, its both and. Physical and spiritual, we call this the sacramental presense. The Fathers such as Ignatius(who was taught by the apostle John himself, you know the same guys who wrote JN 6) made it extremely clear that he was talking about a real physical presense also as does all the early chris†ian writings for the first millenium.

According to he bible and the early fathers the there are 4 marks for the true Church:

The Church is oneJn 17:20-21)

The Church Holy : (1 Peter 2:9, Eph 5:25-27)

The church is Catholic(Universal, encompassing the whole world): (Matt 28:19-20)

The Church is Apostolic in nature: (John 6:70)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Interpretational CHAOS wasn't the first church either, but I bet Max Smart could help you with them.

Really, why the fixation on twisting history and the scriptures to name the Catholic Church as the premiere church, when it clearly WASN'T. Why did it adopt this name? Because it was different than the other churches of Christ of the time. No, the catholic church bears nothing in common with the first century church, with it's structure of priests and man made laws. Saying it was is a clear attempt to rewrite history out of some desire to claim some spiritual authority over Christendom. If nothing else, the bloody history of the Catholic Church tells me it was never the true church.

The ecclesia of Christ is a SPIRITUAL body. It does not conform to man made mantras or laws. If you are stuck on the PHYSICAL (as many of you seem to be) then there is no way for you to understand this.

Words fail me....I don't even know why I try anymore...

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Victor

Words fail me....I don't even know why I try anymore...

Why, you don't think that the true ecclesia is spiritual?

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

. No, the catholic church bears nothing in common with the first century church, with it's structure of priests and man made laws.

Its doesn't???

Priesthood didn't exist? Catholic church not bearing the any similarity to Christ church???? Wre the aposltes not men? did they not make Church laws and decisions in church councils(acts 15)?

The apostles were middle ministerial priest via their ordination(Rom 15:16), theres was a priesthood charged with being ministers and preaching, a priesthood different from our ordinary priesthood that we all have (
2 Peter 1:4) alot like Israels ordinary priesthood(Ex 19:6) that differed from ministeriel priesthood.

The Authority of a prime minister(Pope) who has power second only to that of the davidic King(Jesus) also shows up in Matthew 16:13-19, Via fullfillment of Isaiah 22:20-24.

The real presense of Jesus in the eucharist(Jn 6:48-70, 1 Cor 10:16-17)

Anointing of the sick(James 5:13-16)

Forgivness of sins through the priest(apostlesJn 20:21-23)

shall I go on?

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by athanasius

The church is Catholic(Universal, encompassing the whole world): (Matt 28:19-20)

This proves my point about TWISTING both history and scripture in a vain attempt to FORCE them to show that the Catholic Church was first.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." NIV

No where is Catholic or Universal mentioned here.

I would suggest that EVERYONE look up these scriptures so you can SEE how the interpretations have been forced and that they do not support the Catholic Church as the one true church.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Why, you don't think that the true ecclesia is spiritual?

More than just merly spiritual, the church is a real Visible physicial body which has apostolic authority to make infallible decisions and does so in Church "councils" as we see in Acts 15:28. Jesus alludes to this visible Church in Matt 5:14-16.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Why, you don't think that the true ecclesia is spiritual?

I do, just not spiritual alone. I like you too much to continue at the moment Pete. Let me put my little one to sleep and I will find better words to dialogue with later.....

[Mister Emu]

No where is Catholic or Universal mentioned here.

I would suggest that EVERYONE look up these scriptures so you can SEE how the interpretations have been forced and that they do not support the Catholic Church as the one true church.

So are you saying the Church of Jesus is not to be Catholic, it is not be a universal church for all people? Or am I missing something?

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

This proves my point about TWISTING both history and scripture in a vain attempt to FORCE them to show that the Catholic Church was first.

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." NIV

No where is Catholic or Universal mentioned here.

I would suggest that EVERYONE look up these scriptures so you can SEE how the interpretations have been forced and that they do not support the Catholic Church as the one true church.

I Guess the term "All nations" to you wouldn't mean "The whole world" or "of the whole" Hence Catholic or of the whole???? How does it not? It seems to be what the early christians taught. Your dodging the true and always taught exegesis of this passage.