Catholic Church The First (Jesus Christ, Earth, Messiah, Kingdom, tradition)

[roli]

Originally Posted by TruthInCatholocism

Let's start to use scripture in context here and we will soon paint another picture than what the Catholic Church as been using out of context for years.
The greatest misconception in the Catholic church is from it's inception,that Peter is the Chruch, I am led to believe according to context and other scripture that this is most certainly false.
Several reasons,Peter is a man susceptible to and prone to failure and weak in faith.
Building a church upon a man would be against everything God did in sending His Son to die and to do for man what He himself could not do,be a sinless sacrifice for sin and redeem man.
In Context
Who was the focal point of this conversation ,safe to say it's Jesus
Matt 16:13When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
First he asks his question to the whole,he zero's in on the group of them not Peter only.

14So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
So the theme of this discourse is about who people think Jesus is,he is the prime character, yet none of the people around where certain of who He is,until Peter says He is the Christ Son of the Living God.

17Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Peter received a revelation from the Spirit of God,(as God is Spirit In John 4:24) that Jesus was the Son Of God

Before we go into the rest of the verse we need to establish some points:
Who Peter and Christ are
Peter =Petros {pet'-ros}Peter = "a rock or a stone"
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Cephas = "Kephas {kay-fas'} = "stone"

Jesus is throughout scripture associated to a rock:
Rock = petra {pet'-ra}) a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground b) a rock, a large stone

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


If we follow the theme of this whole line of questioning from Jesus it' falls in line and context that Jesus alludes to say that upon this rock,that being Jesus himself ,which rock Peter just identified is that which I will build my church.
Jesus is saying upon this rock which is the same greek word used for Jesus in 1Cor 10:4 which is petra {pet'-ra} I will build my church
18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock (=petra {pet'-ra} meaning large rock) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [fn3] will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

I don't think so,you might want to research the scriptures before you trust a traditional organization,built upon man's rules

Simple to believe in something without studying to show yourself approved as a workman who need not be ashamed
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Maybe you should see what that church and it's doctrines where built upon and how they contridict the holy scritpures and the true christianity in which Jesus founded.

Exactly my position

[TruthInCatholocism]

O_O Wow.. Why does Almost Every non Catholic Use That.....

A. Peter was called by Greek Petros and not Petra Because of the Replacment of Feminine syntax (Scholars agree)
In Aramaic Peter was Called Kepha when translated Kepha Becomes Petra, Petra is the Feminine Syntax , Peter was Male O_O
(see there dilema) therefor he was called in Greek Petros

B. Aramic Cephas(Kepha) is Litterarly Translated into "ROCK" not "stone" O_O (research aramaic O_O)

C. Finally (ish) Yes, what Jesus was trying to say

Peter you are a insugnificant person a tiny stone.. oh By the way here are the keys to heaven... and later he thought peter so insignificant he said Peter who you forgive are forgiven and who you hold bound are held bound in heaven O_O where do you people get your logic >.<

In aramaic
Jesus said: attah KEFA hu we'al KEFA den ebnyeh qehali (the language Jesus would have been speaking)

Litterarly translates
you are a ROCK and on this ROCK I will BUILD my Church (Assembly)

Massive number of Presbyterian, Protestant, Calvinist, Catholic, Atheist Scholars agree (now anyway) the trasnlation from Aramaic to Greek need a Masculine Syntax hence Petro instead of Petra

Which means your gonna have to Update your argument... (there not using the Kepha thing anymore- They realized its a bad argument) Now i think there trying to say.. Peter didnt goto Rome... Oh wait He is Writing From babylon which is a "Code name" For peagen Rome.. Strike 2

lets see what new you can come up with

So.....

Oh.. and about me reading the Doctines of the Church i know the CCC its not unbiblical at all.... Question a specific Document that is unbiblical.. Ill show you otherwise

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Victor

Slavery? Is that what you call it?

No that's what Paul and Jesus called it. I'll go with their concept of FREEDOM.

I have no need for the all the EXTRA laws you adhere to: what to touch, what to taste, etc. THAT IS SLAVERY. Consider this:

II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NIV


When you submit to all of these man made rules, you are just as enslaved to the letter as were the Israelites. The letter KILLS, the Spirit gives FREEDOM and LIFE.

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. NIV

Rather than try to defend a man made institution, I will spend my time simply loving others. Rather than try to memorize the canon of the Catholic Church, I am just going to love my neighbor. It's far simpler and far more demanding.

[TruthInCatholocism]

You choose to have no Title.. To be Christian... Fine.... Nothign Wrong with that.. But You consider this... There was a church.. and even in the First church (Catholic... Not that this stament pertains to that) had Doctrines....

Consider this

A Church

Ephesians 2:19-20 “Consequently, you are ... members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.”

sounds like a assembly to me

Let me ask you this...

(not Saying your relationship with Jesus is less then mine, i dont believe that at all)

Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin?

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16)

A ritual a tradition........How can you avoid that evidence.. is it not a tradition.. (of course it has bearing)

Did GOD give man authority?

Clearly...yes......

"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21).

Need a break down? The Father (God) Sends his Only Son (Jesus) and with the Same Authority Jesus sends the apostles O_O Clear as can be.....

"Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

Need a break down...?

Truley Jesus says to the Apostles, Whatever you to forbid, prohibit, declare to be illicit on earth is forbiden, prohibited, illicit in heaven and he said to the Apostles whatever you allow, do not restrain, shall be allowed, unrestrained in heaven (by definition) O_O

This power was understood as coming from Jesus

"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18). Indeed, confirms Paul, "So we are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).

All clear parts of scripture showing Apostles given authority by GOD..

You say its slavery.. i say its Truth.. There not Extra Laws.. There Guides.. Doctrines.. Given to us by God and his Authority... and by the Authority Given to the Apostles.... I can make that Claim... You cant

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by TruthInCatholocism

Amen!

Based on Doctinal history.. The Catholic Church is the first... I dont even see any grounds to dispute.. Documents Show.. Infant Bapism... The True Presence... Even Apostolic Succesion.. Bishops.. The power to Forgive sins...107 Ad The term Catholic was used... We see the inportance of Sacrements.....How much more Documental proof do you need?

Depends what you mean by Catholic. I've yet to see a single post from you oranyone else in this thread that profers much in the line of support for your belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ. None of the arguments (other than the idea of Petrine primacy of authority and its transmission to the Popes - an idea that is not supported by a majority of Fathers for one reason or another) even touches on the differences between Rome, us, and the Oriental Orthodox (and as for Victor's comment, there is one other Church that could make a claim, the Assyrian Church of the East certainly has valid - to use an RC term - Apostolic succession).

Would you care to explain what makes you think that Roman Catholicism rather than Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy constitutes the Catholic Church? You certainly can't make claim to historical primacy as both our communions have Sees older than Rome (Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem in our case and Alexandria ion the case of the OOs). I've commented on the Petrine primacy argument and not one of the other things you mentioned above, your 'documental proof' is an argument in favour of Rome - all three of our communions have every one of those things (in case you didn't know, it's only in the west that Catholic is synonymous with Rome).

James

[TruthInCatholocism]

107 AD in Documents The Church is refered to as Catholic... You say the Nicene Creed.. And the 4 marks The Church is One, Holy, Catholic (yes, i know..universal), Apostolic.

Lets Break down the marks of the Church For you....

Is the Orthroox Church "One" ?

The Orthodox Church, Penguin Books, 255–8 ( Orthodox Writer) "there is no practical way for the Orthodox to call or agree upon an ecumenical council "


Is Orthordox Church "Catholic"

Jeus wanted the apostles to go and spread the Good News to "All Nations" Matt. 28:19–20 (Universal-Catholic) yet Orthordox confines itself mostly to Russia, Greece,.... Doesnt sound very universal..


Almost 68 Percent of Christians are Catholic...
Almost 21 Percent Are Othordox

No offense Catholic sounds more.... well... Catholic to me

The Church is Apostolic..... (Follows the works of the Apostles)


Orthodox do not recognize the pope as having the kind of teaching and governing authority....... O_O

You believe in Apostolic Succesion.. But the Pope has no authority >.<

Organizations need leaders if they are to hang together, and if Christ’s Church is a visible (Which it is ) Church, then it needs a single earthly leader

if Peter were the rock Christ speaks of in Matthew 16:18, this would make him the earthly leader of the Church in Jesus’ absence....... And the Leadership was handed down thru Apostolic succesion

Now yes i will say Your church is Apostolic in a sence.... But to ignore the popes Authority.... Uh uh

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

No that's what Paul and Jesus called it. I'll go with their concept of FREEDOM.

I have no need for the all the EXTRA laws you adhere to: what to touch, what to taste, etc. THAT IS SLAVERY. Consider this:

II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NIV


When you submit to all of these man made rules, you are just as enslaved to the letter as were the Israelites. The letter KILLS, the Spirit gives FREEDOM and LIFE.

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. NIV

Rather than try to defend a man made institution, I will spend my time simply loving others. Rather than try to memorize the canon of the Catholic Church, I am just going to love my neighbor. It's far simpler and far more demanding.

That's great, I'll do the same. I'll start with loving Pete and being at sertitude to him. I know that's what Christ would do. Didn't He wash feet? Or maybe he'd prefer freedom? Hmmm...

Anyways, we are heading off in a tangent.

[roli]

[quote=TruthInCatholocism;797797]

O_O Wow.. Why does Almost Every non Catholic Use That.....

dido!!!!

[

QUOTE]
A. Peter was called by Greek Petros and not Petra Because of the Replacment of Feminine syntax (Scholars agree)
In Aramaic Peter was Called Kepha when translated Kepha Becomes Petra, Petra is the Feminine Syntax , Peter was Male O_O
(see there dilema) therefor he was called in Greek Petros

Get out of the heads of these scholars and use scripture to validate scripture
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

B. Aramic Cephas(Kepha) is Litterarly Translated into "ROCK" not "stone" O_O (research aramaic O_O)
C. Finally (ish) Yes, what Jesus was trying to say
Peter you are a insugnificant person a tiny stone.. oh By the way here are the keys to heaven... and later he thought peter so insignificant he said Peter who you forgive are forgiven and who you hold bound are held bound in heaven O_O where do you people get your logic >.<

Maybe your interpretation is false and you use too much logic as opposed to Holy Spirit and reading in context

In aramaic
Jesus said: attah KEFA hu we'al KEFA den ebnyeh qehali (the language Jesus would have been speaking)
Litterarly translates
you are a ROCK and on this ROCK I will BUILD my Church (Assembly)

Jesus speaking ,should be more valid than your interpretation
Read Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

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