Which Of the World's Religions Is Most Practical? (ritual, America)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

Really? Isn't a "creed" basically the same thing as a "doctrine"? They come up as synonyms in my thesaurus. And clearly Mormonism has doctrines. Of course, I'm sure you know what you're talking about when you say your faith isn't creedal...not trying to challenge that! What am I missing?

I suppose that, using the term "creed" very loosely, it could be said to mean "doctrine." My dictionary actually defines it as "a brief statement of religious belief; a confession of faith; a specific statement of this kind, accepted as authoritative by a church."

When I say that we are a non-credal Church, I am thinking in terms of our focus on both personal revelation and by revelation through our Prophets. We believe that spiritual knowledge is gained through such revelation, and also through study, faith, reason, science, and experience. From the very beginning of our religion's existance, LDS prophets have stressed the gospel's inclusive commitment to truth. I could provide you with some actual quotes to illustrate what I'm trying to say, if it would help, but my point is that we believe that we are bound to accept truth, regardless of where we may find it. Our religion embraces every true law or principle, every particle of wisdom that is or has ever been known in the world. We believe that all truth -- religious, philosophical, moral, religious, etc. -- is incorporated into the gospel. In order to believe this, we have to also believe that God is continuing to enlighten and inspire men and women all over the world and will continue to do so as long as this world exists. We see creeds as establishing boundaries and, therefore, as limiting our progress in our search for truth.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I suppose that, using the term "creed" very loosely, it could be said to mean "doctrine." My dictionary actually defines it as "a brief statement of religious belief; a confession of faith; a specific statement of this kind, accepted as authoritative by a church."

I take "creed" to mean "litmus test." Creed is the set of beliefs that you must believe in order to be considered to be a member of said religious group. For example: for many, the beliefs stated in the Nicene creed define what it means to be Christian.

UU is non-credal in that we have no such set of mandatory beliefs.

I would not call Islam non-credal in that I'm pretty sure that you have to believe in the Shahadah* in order to be considered Muslim.

(*There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet.)

I'm surprised to hear you say that Mormonism is non-credal but will accept your word on it.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I take "creed" to mean "litmus test." Creed is the set of beliefs that you must believe in order to be considered to be a member of said religious group. For example: for many, the beliefs stated in the Nicene creed define what it means to be Christian.

That little word "must" is a pretty important one. There is nothing in Mormonism that is comparable to the Nicene Creed. The Articles of Faith would probably be the closest thing we we to a creed, but we do not consider them as something a person "must believe" or else be asked out of the Church. Joseph Smith said, "I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels good not to be trammelled."

UU is non-credal in that we have no such set of mandatory beliefs... I'm surprised to hear you say that Mormonism is non-credal but will accept your word on it.

Well, it's relative, I guess. When compared to UU's, we're probably pretty credal at that. When compared to other Christians, we're not. I think that, for us, the idea is that God isn't through talking to us and that we won't be bound by a written statement that puts any limits on what God may choose to reveal in the future or on our personal understanding.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by lilithu

UU is non-credal in that we have no such set of mandatory beliefs.

That's why i see UU as a society meetings and services more than a plain religion.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lilithu

The point of your belief is salvation, is it not?

So then ultimately the practical question is: what would keep you from salvation?

If believing the "wrong" things will bar someone from heaven no matter how sincerely they've tried to be good, then yes, one must judge based on belief.

If otoh, people who have sincerely tried to be good according to the dictates of their own belief systems will make it into heaven, then correct belief is clearly not the ultimate criterion. If it's not ultimately based on correct beliefs, then on what basis would one judge sincere desire to be good? Must be the fruits.

Well, sincerity is certainly something that will be considered (Highly considered in fact). After all, I do believe in a Just God. But it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that what you believe doesn’t matter. The Catholic Church believes that “the normative means of salvation is through the Church and its graces”. But you will not find the Church defining what normative actually means. Why? Because every person’s heart and situation is unique and with such complexities only God can know what that encompasses.

So although sincerity matters, so does what you believe. It would be like a man just coming to understand that cannibalism is wrong. Once he understands that something is wrong, he is bound to submit to what is right. He is essentially one step closer to what is “normative”.

So salvation is acquired by the state of your heart (sincerity) in conjunction to what you know.

Hope that was clear.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Victor

Well, sincerity is certainly something that will be considered (Highly considered in fact). After all, I do believe in a Just God. But it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that what you believe doesn’t matter. The Catholic Church believes that “the normative means of salvation is through the Church and its graces”. But you will not find the Church defining what normative actually means. Why? Because every person’s heart and situation is unique and with such complexities only God can know what that encompasses.

So although sincerity matters, so does what you believe. It would be like a man just coming to understand that cannibalism is wrong. Once he understands that something is wrong, he is bound to submit to what is right. He is essentially one step closer to what is “normative”.

So salvation is acquired by the state of your heart (sincerity) in conjunction to what you know.

Hope that was clear.

Good answer. Well thought out!

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Victor

Well, sincerity is certainly something that will be considered (Highly considered in fact). After all, I do believe in a Just God. But it doesn’t necessarily have to follow that what you believe doesn’t matter.

I'm not saying that belief doesn't matter. I am saying that it's not what matters most. Again, what do you believe will exclude a person from salvation? *If* you believe that it's possible for a person to get into heaven even tho one doesn't believe that Jesus is God and is not a member of the Church, then it isn't right belief that's essential for salvation.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I'm not saying that belief doesn't matter. I am saying that it's not what matters most. Again, what do you believe will exclude a person from salvation? *If* you believe that it's possible for a person to get into heaven even tho one doesn't believe that Jesus is God and is not a member of the Church, then it isn't right belief that's essential for salvation.

That doesn't mean that at all. What you are doing is using an exception (like the thief on the cross) and using it as a norm across the board. You wouldn't do that in the real life would you? Would you excuse "sincerity" with something like stealing, rape, or murder? Sure it's possible that the person committing such things sincerely was trying to do the right thing, but sincerity only takes you so far, don't it?. As they say "with knowledge comes responsibility". So sincerity is essential, so long as it's followed by unintentional ignorance, lack of consent, or lack of full knowledge. Surely, you don't believe a person who has full knowledge, complete consent of the will, on a grave matter (rape, murder, theft, etc.) can be excused by his/her sincerity? So knowledge and consent can and do trump sincerity. That's why I said, "So salvation is acquired by the state of your heart (sincerity) in conjunction to what you know."