Suicide and Religion (ritual, moral, tradition, Buddhism, reincarnation)

[CDRaider]

I recently got into a discussion with a Criminologist about suicide and religion. I'm not sure how many people on this forum have heard of Durkheim's study on Suicide but what it basically says is that countries with religions that require more integration (he studied mainly Catholic) have a lower suicide rate than those that aren't as tight knit (mainly European protestant). By this theory he concluded that with the social integration in the Catholic Culture and like culture, there would be low instances of suicide.

(I can't post a url yet, I'm too new but go to google and type Durkheim suicide and the first link is a good one)

The part that came to the discussion was the fact that religions like Buddhism and Hinduism have a higher suicide rate than those like Islam and Catholicism that strictly prohibts it. The thing that got me a little upset was the fact that no one takes into consideration the altruisitc nature of suicide in the cultures where those are prominant.

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I am not overly versed in Hinduism) but don't the elderly sometimes leave their family and go off by themselves at a certian point when they have quit working and no longer have children to raise. As I've been told, they leave without an provisions and go off to essentually die. Well statistically that is suicide but its not suicide in the same way that it is seen in Western worlds.

There is another case where two daughters, older than their brother, overheard their parents saying that they could not afford to send the son to school because of the cost for the girls schools. These girls attempted suicide so that their brother could go to school. That is statistically suicide and would count in the poll for the country's prominate religion but they didn't do it becuase they didn't have social ties in the culture. They did it for the benifit of the family.

What do you guys think about the comparision of the suicide rates and if you can compare them? (sorry its so long)

[retrorich]

My concern is that people who want to end their lives without having to blow their brains out all over a room for someone else to clean up should have access to humane, professionally assisted suicides.

FREE DR. KEVORKIAN!!!!!!!

[BFD_Zayl]

ironically, we seek death, but, we would never commit suicide (for spiritual reasons) we see this as unnatrual and a great crime against the balance, granted we still might do it for reasons more mundane

[CDRaider]

Originally Posted by retrorich

My concern is that people who want to end their lives without having to blow their brains out all over a room for someone else to clean up should have access to humane, professionally assisted suicides.

I agree with you but thats not really what I'm asking. What I wanted to know is how do people see these suicides in alternate religions as well as clarification from a Buddhist or Hinduist(??) about suicide in the religion. How you acutally do the deed is relatively irrelavant, its the reason you do it that is important.

[michel]

Originally Posted by CDRaider

I recently got into a discussion with a Criminologist about suicide and religion. I'm not sure how many people on this forum have heard of Durkheim's study on Suicide but what it basically says is that countries with religions that require more integration (he studied mainly Catholic) have a lower suicide rate than those that aren't as tight knit (mainly European protestant). By this theory he concluded that with the social integration in the Catholic Culture and like culture, there would be low instances of suicide.

(I can't post a url yet, I'm too new but go to google and type Durkheim suicide and the first link is a good one)

The part that came to the discussion was the fact that religions like Buddhism and Hinduism have a higher suicide rate than those like Islam and Catholicism that strictly prohibts it. The thing that got me a little upset was the fact that no one takes into consideration the altruisitc nature of suicide in the cultures where those are prominant.

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I am not overly versed in Hinduism) but don't the elderly sometimes leave their family and go off by themselves at a certian point when they have quit working and no longer have children to raise. As I've been told, they leave without an provisions and go off to essentually die. Well statistically that is suicide but its not suicide in the same way that it is seen in Western worlds.

There is another case where two daughters, older than their brother, overheard their parents saying that they could not afford to send the son to school because of the cost for the girls schools. These girls attempted suicide so that their brother could go to school. That is statistically suicide and would count in the poll for the country's prominate religion but they didn't do it becuase they didn't have social ties in the culture. They did it for the benifit of the family.

What do you guys think about the comparision of the suicide rates and if you can compare them? (sorry its so long)

I guess I fit in those statistics(but only for the first attempt); I was 'religionless' whenI had my first attempt (and that was just out of sheer fear).

My other attempts were honestly altruistic (as you describe can be the case); I felt a lousy Husband, a lousy Father and one with no hope of improving, so I wanted to make the way clear for my wife to marry another man while she was still young.

These other attempts were when I was actively 'spiritual', and, believing in reincarnation as I do, killing myself would have got me precicelly nowhere (It would have meant that I would have had to re-live the whole of this life, to pass whatever 'test' this life was about.

[Seyorni]

Originally Posted by CDRaider

I recently got into a discussion with a Criminologist about suicide and religion. I'm not sure how many people on this forum have heard of Durkheim's study on Suicide but what it basically says is that countries with religions that require more integration (he studied mainly Catholic) have a lower suicide rate than those that aren't as tight knit (mainly European protestant). By this theory he concluded that with the social integration in the Catholic Culture and like culture, there would be low instances of suicide.

(I can't post a url yet, I'm too new but go to google and type Durkheim suicide and the first link is a good one)

The part that came to the discussion was the fact that religions like Buddhism and Hinduism have a higher suicide rate than those like Islam and Catholicism that strictly prohibts it. The thing that got me a little upset was the fact that no one takes into consideration the altruisitc nature of suicide in the cultures where those are prominant.

Correct me if I'm wrong (because I am not overly versed in Hinduism) but don't the elderly sometimes leave their family and go off by themselves at a certian point when they have quit working and no longer have children to raise. As I've been told, they leave without an provisions and go off to essentually die. Well statistically that is suicide but its not suicide in the same way that it is seen in Western worlds.

There is another case where two daughters, older than their brother, overheard their parents saying that they could not afford to send the son to school because of the cost for the girls schools. These girls attempted suicide so that their brother could go to school. That is statistically suicide and would count in the poll for the country's prominate religion but they didn't do it becuase they didn't have social ties in the culture. They did it for the benifit of the family.

What do you guys think about the comparision of the suicide rates and if you can compare them? (sorry its so long)

Durkheim's study applies only to Western, Abrahamic cultures, where there is a strong religious prohibition of suicide. Traditional Japanese culture, for example, is even more integrated, even tribal, than western culture, but suicide is seen as an honorable option in certain circumstances.

Hinduism does not have the strong moral prohibition of suicide found in Abrahamic cultures. Alas, many Hindus do suicide when they find themselves in hopeless circumstances. This is rarely a reclamation of honor as is the case in many Japanese suicides, just a tragic acknowledgement of hopelessness.

In traditional, Vedic Hinduism there are four life stages. After completing one's duty as a parent and provider (Grihartha), at about age 50, the scriptures approve -- but do not require, retirement in a a monklike lifestyle (Vanaprastha). This is not suicidal, and there is no suggestion that a vanaprasthi be particularly ascetic.
The fourth life stage, sannyasa, is an option for the particularly religious. This is a complete detachment from the world and focus on Yoga. Sannyasis are wandering ascetics, sometimes even holy men (sadhus).
Sadhus are ascetics, but are not suicidal. In rural areas, in fact, villagers will fall all over themselves to provide a visiting Sadhu with anything he requires.

[CDRaider]

Seyorni- Thank you for the clarification. I know very little about the topic and was hoping someone could respond for me.

I suppose the thing that upsets me is perhaps people that are so engrossed with the stigma associated in our culture of the person being weak and the like sterotypes that they cannot see that in some cases, suicicde isn't the worst thing in the world. I mean the whole setting yourself on fire... its not because they are demented.

And I do have to conceed the point that Durkheim did not study most Asia societys/cultures. I just get worked up when in the classroom envoirnment, his theories are applied to Asia and Indian religions when that is now what is inteded

[Pardus]

I'd say those studies would be quite accurate, because a good portion of the population are quite sheep-like, in other words they are very susceptible to indoctrination.

Now i personally don't believe that there is anything wrong with suicide, IMO it is an option to deal with pain.

Now i just have to have a rant.

*Rant*
If you have anything to b!tch about when it comes to suicide, don't you dare take a pain killer and if you can't give them another option to get rid of the pain, not just deal with, but get rid of, because obviously the pain is too much for the individual to handle, you should shut the hell up!
*/Rant*

[Random]

In more depressive times, especially as a guilt-ridden Catholic and son of an emotionally abusive alchoholic father, I thought often about suicide.

Once, I was so deep in despair and of an irrational frame of mind that I went to the local herb shop here in my hometown of Greystones and acquired the materials to make a lethal poison for ingestion. I got the formula out of a book an associate lent me.

I stirred it up, mixed it with some soda which doesn't dilute the effects or potency of it and then poured the contents into a glass. I sat down with the glass on a table before me. All I had to do was drink it and I would be dead inside of fifteen minutes, no pain.

I sat looking @ it for ages. My mind was numb, my thoughts had no coherency. Then it struck me: there are only two possibilities here that matter.

Either I'm a coward for not doing it now, taking the poison having arrived @ this point and feeling there was no going back, or I'm a coward for taking it and ending my life. Either way, I was or could be a coward.

What stopped me was the realization that, despite my many flaws and failings, despite how I felt, I was not a coward: or if I was, I didn't want to be. That gave me something to live for, something small maybe, but something anyway. The thought that I could be different made everything else different.

For this thought and this potential, I credit my spirituality, my religion. In this way, in saying this, I hope that you understand that suicide is rarely an option one can live with oneself, regardless of circumstances, regardless of pain and suffering.

Things CAN get better, there is no such thing as hopelessness. I say this on faith, believing it. That's why I am over that whole period in my life now, and suicide is very far from my thoughts or considerations.

It's about Faith: could be in yourself, someone else, a Higher power, or Nature. If one can be saved from having to end ones own life, one can be saved from anything. After that, it can only get better.

Sorry if this is too long-winded or seems off-topic, apologies.