Why Are There No Fanatical Taoists? (soul, experience, after life, fanaticism)

[Sunstone]

Why doesn't Taoism produce as many fanatics as some other religions?

[PureX]

Taoism is all about 'going with the flow'. How can one be fanatic about that? There's no 'cause' in it to get fanatical about. Fanatics want to CHANGE the world, not go along with it.

[Jaymes]

Because if you get fanatic to the point of trying to convert or kill others over Taoism, you're missing the point.

I can't say I've ever heard of any Buddhist fanatics, either. There's a pretty solid lack of fanatacism with any religion that encourages self-control and being at peace with yourself, in my experience.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Interesting question. PureX and Jensa make sense to me.

All I can think of to add an angle right now is Eric Hoffer's 'The True Believer'. He thought that fanaticism (political, religious and otherwise) was rooted in an unbearable lack of self-esteem, and with that the frustrations of self-doubt, self-loathing, fear & insecurity, etc. Fanatical branches of religion can especially appeal because they give meaning through dramatic absorption into a larger group identity, which throws off self-doubt. With little 'self' to begin with its fine to sacrifice it for some glorious goal, and worth sacrificing others too since little self only recognises little self in others too, the mass-movement is far greater. Fanaticism also serves as a means to deflect loathing/hatred away from the self (having come to be identified with the mass-movement) and out onto the world instead. Without needing to 'think for one's self' the fears & insecurities of that can be bypassed too, not least through the unquestionable certainties of the 'rightness' of a fanatical movement.

Taoism (Tao Chia) doesn't offer much in the way of safety, its pretty useless. In Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching Lao Tzu sums up his character, and so in a sense, offers an insight into why Taoists might be less inclined to get drawn into fanaticism: -

"Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.
Others are clear and bright,
But I alone am dim and weak.
Others are sharp and clever,
But I alone am dull and stupid.
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,
Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy,
But I alone and aimless and depressed.
I am different.
I am nourished by the great mother."

Pretty boring loner eh? Also, to identify with the 'Great Mother', well what are her qualities?

"When you gaze at something but see - nothing;
When you listen for a sound but cannot hear it;
When you try to grasp it and find it has no substance
- then these three things
That go beyond your mind
Are moulded together in the One.

Its surface doesn't shine, but nor is its base dull.
Given this, it is only knowable as a no-thing."

What kind of certainties does that offer? Hardly reassuring to a frustrated soul grasping for meaning and purpose in a terrifying world. No grand goal, no after life, no absolute authority, no tangible identity! Taoism is crap really. *laughing*

[Victor]

Originally Posted by PureX

Taoism is all about 'going with the flow'. How can one be fanatic about that?

I know what you mean.

[robtex]

Sw's post was great. I think two things not mentioned worth mentioning though are this. Taoism doesn't have a personal theistic God. It is more of neutral force of the universe. worshipping the tao by implication, in the way one might worship a more personable deity loses merit. The tao can be followed if one subscribes to it but that is a far cry from worship.

Secondly, taoism is one of the religions where there is not a "one true God" or "one true way." Religions that promote the idea of exclusiveness have created a paradigm that has the propensity to make fanaticism valid. By valid I mean it can be reasoned within the confines of that belief system.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Interesting question. PureX and Jensa make sense to me.

All I can think of to add an angle right now is Eric Hoffer's 'The True Believer'. He thought that fanaticism (political, religious and otherwise) was rooted in an unbearable lack of self-esteem, and with that the frustrations of self-doubt, self-loathing, fear & insecurity, etc. Fanatical branches of religion can especially appeal because they give meaning through dramatic absorption into a larger group identity, which throws off self-doubt. With little 'self' to begin with its fine to sacrifice it for some glorious goal, and worth sacrificing others too since little self only recognises little self in others too, the mass-movement is far greater. Fanaticism also serves as a means to deflect loathing/hatred away from the self (having come to be identified with the mass-movement) and out onto the world instead. Without needing to 'think for one's self' the fears & insecurities of that can be bypassed too, not least through the unquestionable certainties of the 'rightness' of a fanatical movement.

I would tend to agree with this characterization.

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Taoism (Tao Chia) doesn't offer much in the way of safety, its pretty useless. In Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching Lao Tzu sums up his character, and so in a sense, offers an insight into why Taoists might be less inclined to get drawn into fanaticism: -

"Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.
Others are clear and bright,
But I alone am dim and weak.
Others are sharp and clever,
But I alone am dull and stupid.
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,
Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy,
But I alone and aimless and depressed.
I am different.
I am nourished by the great mother."

Pretty boring loner eh? Also, to identify with the 'Great Mother', well what are her qualities?

"When you gaze at something but see - nothing;
When you listen for a sound but cannot hear it;
When you try to grasp it and find it has no substance
- then these three things
That go beyond your mind
Are moulded together in the One.

Its surface doesn't shine, but nor is its base dull.
Given this, it is only knowable as a no-thing."

What kind of certainties does that offer? Hardly reassuring to a frustrated soul grasping for meaning and purpose in a terrifying world. No grand goal, no after life, no absolute authority, no tangible identity! Taoism is crap really. *laughing*

*smile*

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

Why doesn't Taoism produce as many fanatics as some other religions?

How could a religion whose very symbol represents balance and diversity produce fanatics?

[bigvindaloo]

Originally Posted by PureX

Taoism is all about 'going with the flow'. How can one be fanatic about that? There's no 'cause' in it to get fanatical about. Fanatics want to CHANGE the world, not go along with it.

I would agree with the "going with the flow about Taoism". However isn't there a lesson to be learnt from allowing the flow to go?