Why Don't We Need Prophets Anymore? (mystic, elder, church, Revelation)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Kat, I hope you don't mind if I interject here. You are really pressing Dawny to the wall here, and while I know she is perfectly capable of fending for herself (and has been doing an admirable job), I feel compelled to make an observation.

Hi, Laurie. Of course I don't mind if you contribute. I always like hearing your thoughts. I was afraid that I might be seen as "pressing Dawny to the wall." If she feels that I am, I will bow out of this debate right now. There are a lot more important things to me that proving my point. I value relationships far more than I value having the last word in a conversation. But since this is a debate forum, and since I feel so strongly about my position, it's hard for me to ignore statements that appear not to have been thought out clearly. My approach has always been just to encourage people to examine their own beliefs in light of questions they may not have considered before. If I ever start coming across as dogmatic or beligerent, I hope someone will call that to my attention. If you're saying I've already crossed that line, I will apologize right now and go on to other threads.

You do realize that there are other Prophets in the past couple of centuries who also uphold Christ as "Son of God," also believe that the Bible is the Word of God (or at least the red words of the Gospels are), also believe that Christiany has been corrupted and fallen away from the original teachings of Christ, also negates many of the doctrines of the Catholic Church as 'man-made,' and in short, pretty much holds up the exact same argument as you do above for listening to a new Prophet, even though parts of the message conflict with doctrines like the Trinity and Incarnation, and sacraments like the Eucharist and Baptism.

Actually, no, I wasn't aware of such individuals. At least none come to mind. But if you would like to give me some more information on them, I'd be interested in pursuing the topic.

Why do you reject these Prophets in favor of the LDS? These Prophets give very clear and explicit detailed answers to your list of doctrine questions, and they are all pretty nice answers, even if they differ from those of the Catholic Church, Pentacostals, Episcopalians, and LDS.

Again, I don't know who they are, so I can't really comment. But this does sound like a fascinating topic. You might even want to start a new thread on it.

Why do you reject the Baha'i Faith? Have you investigated it in your search for truth? Why or why not?

Actually, I have said on occasion that if I were ever to leave Christianity, I'd probably become a member of the Baha'i Faith. I think the primary reason why I would reject the Baha'i faith is that I really do believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, the Redeemer of mankind, and the only means by which we can be reconciled to God. While there is much about the Baha'i Faith that I admire, unless I am wrong, they do not see Jesus Christ as having the same role as I believe He had. Obviously, I don't reject their belief in prophets who followed Christ, but I see Christ as being unique among everyone who has ever lived. I see Him as divine, whereas I see all prophets as being mere mortals. I see Him as having been completely free from sin; no other person who has ever lived -- including LDS prophets and Baha'i prophets -- has lived a perfect life. I see Him as having had the power within himself to have taken up His body with renewed life after having been dead for three days and to have the power to do the same for us. If Baha'is believe these things about Him, and see Him as part of the Godhead described in the scriptures, I am not aware of that fact.

Just to clarify the LDS Church's position on the subject of whether God speaks through people outside of our faith, let me quote from a 1978 statement given by the Presidency of the Church:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

Another LDS Apostle had previously stated:

“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.”

I think this would be the position of my Church towards the prophets of the Baha'i Faith, and it would accurately explain my own thoughts about the leaders of that religion.

[dawny0826]

My definition of prophet really doesn't differ much from yours although I do think that God gives us each different gifts and talents and do think that there are genuine men and women of God who have been given the gift of prophesy on many different levels. Perhaps their gift of prophesy is to be used for self edification or for edification within their families or maybe they are truly meant to edify the church.

But in terms of a prophet being a teacher or inspired leader...I liken the term prophet to the term apostle or disciple. And I don't feel remorse likening pastors and reverands and fathers and so on and so forth to prophets. If a man has been called to preach or teach the word...I believe they are a modern day apostle, disciple, prophet...they've been called to do a larger than average part in carrying out the great commission...which is to get the Gospel to the people.

The President of the Church is considered by its members to be the mouthpiece of God Himself.

In my faith...the President, if there even is one...is an equal to the congregation. We look up to him for counseling...for teaching...he edifies the body through his gift of teaching.

"We don't need prophets any more because God doesn't care what we believe, how we envision Him, how we understand our relationship to Him or anything else. If we do our best as Christians to love Him and our fellow men, that's all that matters."

Basically, i think doing our best as Christians IS all that matters. If we LOVE Christ, put Him first in our lives and reach out to others...everything else follows suit...the Bible DOES state this.

Of course God cares what we believe but I don't think when we're faced to face with our heavenly Father...He's going to be as concerned about how we answered those questions as He will be How we lived for Him...obeying the commandments which He CLEARLY stated...TWICE. And Christ taught us to LOVE. And I quoted scripture several posts back, just to give you an example where we're told if we desire virtue and knowledge and we exercise brotherly love...God's not going to leave our minds void of the truths that we need to know.

But do we NEED a prophet to reveal these truths to us? My answer is...still no.

I think my question is this...and I don't mean offense, Kathryn...I'm included in this too...I say this about all of Christianity...

How much time to Christians WASTE stressing over these type of questions? How many people could we reach out to and speak of Christ's love to while we ponder over questions such as those?

In the grand scheme of things...when we've moved on...and we're face to face with our Father...what do we think He's going to be focused on...how we envisioned Him? How we understood Him?

I truly think that He's going to care about how much we loved Him and loved one another and lived our lives with the desire to please Him and to be righteous and holy.

And there's no holiness in argument and unanswered questions.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't ask questions and we shouldn't learn from each other...I'm not saying that...I'm just saying that in the long run...what will really matter? And I'm sure it's possible that each Christian would have a unique answer to that.

I didn't learn of the Trinity in the Pentecostal church.

It was a belief of all the churches I attended growing up...but I didn't really LEARN of it until I accepted Christ and understood within my core what it means.

Well, to an extent, so do I. You've obviously done a pretty good job of it so far. But, I guess it gets back to the ten questions I posed a few paragraphs back. If you think the answers to those questions don't matter, then you can totally get along without a prophet. If you think that they do, you might want to rethink your position.

I think the answers matter but I don't think that it's imperative to have a concise answer for each of those questions. I think it's imperative to seek out Christ in all we do and act upon what we feel we're being led to do and believe.

If the prophet is wrong...those who believed him/her are in trouble...

Amos 3:7 is the one I was quoting.

I might look that up...since I really do have a BOM in my posession.

Why are you cautious if you don't think the Holy Ghost will allow you to be mislead? If you seek, ponder and pray, He's not going to lead you astray. But you have to be willing to at least be open to the possibility that you don't know everything God has made available to you.

I haven't been in the position where I've felt prompted to think of information outside of what I have in front of me.

I've researched different Bible verses and themes within the Bible. I have many books but I always seem to find what I was looking for in the Bible or I have an a-ha moment when I pray.

I may not know everything that God has made available to us. I have faith that if there's something I need to know...I'll have an A-Ha moment and it'll fall into place.

I can only state my opinion, Dawny, and that is that God would not have one of His prophets teaching certain doctrines and another of His prophets teaching different doctrines. So, the answer to that question is "no." I don't believe God considers your pastor to be a prophet in the biblical sense of the word. Please understand that I am not coming from a judgmental perspective. I just believe that any prophet God calls has to have been ordained by someone with the authority to do so and that a degree from a theological seminary or divinity school is not the same thing as receiving the power and authority Jesus gave Peter.

I disagree but only because my opinions on God given authority is different. In my faith, much less emphasis and importance is placed on the authority figures in the church. I know you weren't trying to be judgemental and I understand what you're saying...we're just coming from two different lines of thinking when it comes to the church...the role of the church and authority.

I'm enjoying this conversation, Dawny, and appreciate your continued input. I just want you to know that I have a great deal of respect for you and believe you to be a wonderful example of a Christian. Please don't ever think I believe otherwise.

I respect you very much, Kathryn and you too are an excellent example of a Christian. I love debating and discussing with you.

In all honesty, I always feel spiritually uplifted when discussing with you.

I'm going out of town this weekend, so if I don't check back in...that's why. Have a beautiful weekend, if I don't get another post in.

[Katzpur]

Dawny, I'm going to make this brief for two reasons. First of all, it's starting to get late and I've been at this messaging far too long for one day. Secondly, Laurie has suggested that I might be coming across a bit too strong. I value her opinion and, as I've said before, I don't ever want that to be the case.

Originally Posted by dawny0826

You're right. I don't. And I'm going to be totally honest with you...the history of the church truly isn't of the greatest importance to me. If it's sinful of me to say this, then I apologize to my Lord and Savior with a sincere heart but it's true...I know little about the history of the church because it's never been a focus in any religious denomination that I've been a part of. Whether I'm a creature of habit or just historically ignorant...I'm completely content having what little knowledge I have.

Obviously, I can't force you to be interested in something you aren't interested in. It's just a subject I find fascinating and, in light of my beliefs, it's one that I see as significant. If Christ's Church did not survive in its pure form beyond a few short years, it seems to me that this is something every Christian would want to be aware of. And if Christ's original teachings have since been restored by true prophets, I can't conceive of any Christian not caring.

But you know, awhile back, I posted something I'd read on another thread that, for some reason, never elicited much response. Anyway, it was a quote I read; it was not original with me, but it did express my own feelings very well. It said, "Those who believe in the spiritual realm, I think, must not only trust their own spiritual experiences -- whatever they may be -- but they must also trust and respect the spiritual experiences of others." So, what can I say? I would never suggest that anyone not follow his or her own heart. That is exactly what you are doing, and I don't for a minute condemn you for it.

I think about it every day of my life, Kathryn. I ask myself too often...am I SUPPOSED to be Catholic? Was that Christ's idea for the church?

And Kathryn, truly...in all honesty...sometimes there are ideals that you (especially) place on the table that make me look a little harder into your faith as well.

That's good to hear. I don't believe that any of us should ever stop questioning. That's when we stop learning.

I don't really understand how that information could be lost when Christ was with his people after His death...after the death of his apostles.

Well, since any discussion on this topic would totally take us off the subject of the need for prophets, I'm not going to go into it now. I'll simply quote one scripture that I find to be extremely significant to this discussion. I'll follow it by explaining what I believe it means. I would enjoy hearing your comments on it as well.

Ephesians 4:11-14 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

Jesus Christ called apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. He did so in order to (1) help His followers become perfect (i.e. "whole" or "mature") as Christians, (2) minister to them, and (3) to teach them. These callings He intended to remain in place until we all became united in the faith and in our knowledge of Jesus Christ, so that we, too, can be spiritually mature in Him. Otherwise (i.e. without this structure, this foundation of prophets and apostles, etc.), we will again be as children, tossed back and forth, hearing all variations of doctrine and not knowing which of them to believe, being subject to men whose intent it is to deceive us and lead us away from the truth.

Not to knock your point of view...this is just where I'm coming from.

Thank you. I know you're not knocking my point of view. I hope you don't think I was knocking yours.

You believe that your Prophets received revelations from Christ and so I'm going to assume, that the knowledge that you believe Prophets will reveal and have revealed...IS gospel.

That would be an absolutely perfect summation.

God bless, Dawn.

Kathryn

[dawny0826]

Kathryn,

If you've already read my second post...I had to go back and change a couple things...because they didn't quite come out right the first time. LOL! Just wanted to let you know...

(I'm super thankful for EDIT)

[dawny0826]

Lori and Kathryn...I love you both and care about your concern. I haven't been offended in any way or haven't felt cornered.

You're both beautiful people to care about my feelings in that regard, though. So thanks to you both.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

I might look that up...since I really do have a BOM in my posession.

Uh... Amos is in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon.

I'm going out of town this weekend, so if I don't check back in...that's why. Have a beautiful weekend, if I don't get another post in.

Have a fun weekend!

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Uh... Amos is in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon.
[color=black]
Have a fun weekend!

Are you serious? LOL!

Well, I just discovered Nahum...so...