Do you believe Jesus existed? (Jesus Christ, gospel, disciples, myths)

[ChrisP]

Anyone who's spent some time looking into religion comes upon the unsurprising fact that legends myths and religious texts must have SOME grounding in fact. People can imagine anything, but they have to have some... context... to create their imaginings from.

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

[quote]Occam's Razor sorta demands such a belief, imo. That is, I think the idea that a non-existent person could inspire something that's been as large, influential and long-lasting as Christianity is about on a par with the idea that the Moon Landing was all a hoax./QUOTE]

The fact that Christianly has been so infuential has little to do with the facts that there have so many Christ like figures throughout history. Figures that in fact performed the same miracles and died in the same way for the salvation of man kind. Mostly like Christ existed but the reason his message has existed for so long and has changed the world is because of the myth created around the man. That being said there is nothing said of him in the history of the era besides in the bible beginning to be written 40 years after his death. It seems that the apostles were probably with in ten years of his age and life expectancy was a very short period of time. So the words in the books of the bible are most likely heresy. Stories passed down over and over again and changed just as the Bible still evolves today. It is possible he was entirely made up by people that wanted to change a world of hate and fear into one of compassion. A means to an end so to speak. Drawing on legends, saviors, and other myths. No one will ever know. Its all belief and trust as is everything.

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

sorry not heresy, but hear say i don't know how to spell :P

[Booko]

Originally Posted by TimetoWasteTimeToWait

The fact that Christianly has been so infuential has little to do with the facts that there have so many Christ like figures throughout history. Figures that in fact performed the same miracles and died in the same way for the salvation of man kind.

You're telling this to a *Baha'i*? I hope you weren't thinking I would contradict any of this, but alas, that discussion would be off topic.

It seems that the apostles were probably with in ten years of his age and life expectancy was a very short period of time. So the words in the books of the bible are most likely heresy.

Not to worry, I know you meant hearsay.

I would give it another name, though. "Tradition." When it comes to history, we often depend on traditions, if the age we're talking about is distant enough. But for some odd reason, the tools that are acceptable for historical research at any other time are not acceptable when it's dealing with the existence of Jesus.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I find approach to be anywhere from unscholarly to hypocritical.

Stories passed down over and over again and changed just as the Bible still evolves today.

I have never made a comment as to whether the record in the Bible about Jesus are accurate stories -- only that it is historical evidence that such a person existed. Would I like there to be other sources? Sure. But there aren't. And there aren't for a lot of other figures in history we consider historical.

It is possible he was entirely made up by people that wanted to change a world of hate and fear into one of compassion.

No sale. Even philosophy doesn't have the power to do that. Imaginary fairy tales have even less chance of that working.

When you can show me an example in human history of a completely fictional person ending up inspiring billions, creating a civilization, and being accepted as having actually existed, then I'll reconsider. But that's so much of a stretch and to my knowledge is without precedent in human history.

A means to an end so to speak. Drawing on legends, saviors, and other myths. No one will ever know. Its all belief and trust as is everything.

I see where a similar pattern has occured in human history on several occasions, and with similar results. So I find it more plausible to accept the historicity of the figure of Jesus as much as I do Moses, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

But for some odd reason, the tools that are acceptable for historical research at any other time are not acceptable when it's dealing with the existence of Jesus.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I find approach to be anywhere from unscholarly to hypocritical.

elaborate please

I see where a similar pattern has occured in human history on several occasions, and with similar results. So I find it more plausible to accept the historicity of the figure of Jesus as much as I do Moses, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Very true, I'm not saying he did or didn't exist I guess I'm trying to find a fact that he did through documented history. Preserved documents just a mention of his name. I said unsure. It is just as hard to find of Muhammad, Buddha, and Krishna I'll have to do some research on the last three.

[finalfrogo]

I'm unsure. Does the question refer to the actual figure of Jesus depicted by the Bible, or of a historical person that figure is based upon? I reject the former mainly because the biblical story of Jesus seems heavily borrowed from older stories in ancient religion; the scriptures are doubtable and contradictory; and we might not even know Jesus's real name (all commonly thought names for "Jesus" may only be titles, as they have double-meanings... I can present more information on this later if anyone requests but don't have it with me at the moment). However, a historical figure on which the biblical stories center on seems possible.

[clark]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

Anyone who's spent some time looking into religion comes upon the unsurprising fact that legends myths and religious texts must have SOME grounding in fact. People can imagine anything, but they have to have some... context... to create their imaginings from.

How about Father Christmas the Tooth fairy or the heroes of Greek mythology,
are they based on FACT?
a story is told and each person and each generation add their little bit and the story gets bigger and better,
how about Robin Hood, there is no evidence the man ever existed but his story is known by millions of people, the same with King Arthur, no evidence at all, then add the word God and you have a whole new ball game.

[Bishka]

Perhpas Father Christmas and the Tooth Faity were at one point real people in a real town or village who went around taking the teeth (perhaps a tvillage dentist) and perhaps Father Christmas was the kindly old man in town. We don't really know how many of these ideas got started, but I believe most stories, legends, myths, truths, etc., were all usually based in truth, but got stuck or completley changed around at some point.

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by clark

How about Father Christmas the Tooth fairy or the heroes of Greek mythology,
are they based on FACT?
a story is told and each person and each generation add their little bit and the story gets bigger and better,
how about Robin Hood, there is no evidence the man ever existed but his story is known by millions of people, the same with King Arthur, no evidence at all, then add the word God and you have a whole new ball game.

Exactly... the question is not what is the truth, it is "Did Jesus exist". I believe he did. I don't believe everything that is said occured in a literal sense. I do believe there was a spiritual teacher who was enlightened and who lived in that area around the time given for Jesus life. His name may or may not have been Jesus, but that is unimportant to me.