What if? (ritual, Earth, hell, experience, spiritual)

[Revasser]

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

Well, if the gods are natural, then they aren't really creators and they aren't outside of reality, controling it. They are living here just like us. I wouldn't worship them. Just like I don't worship trees, or bees, or oceans.

Hmmm, I suppose it just seems a little odd to me because the assumption that the gods and various other things are just a "part of the world" in the way you describe is essentially the assumption I make. I don't see them as literal creators or as separate from the natural world. Yet I could still be considered to "worship."

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

What if experiences interpreted as being of the divine, or the spiritual, are actually experiences of something real, physical, and naturally occurring.

Well, in my view spiritual experiences are an interpretation of something real, physical, and naturally occuring. That's what they are --an interpretation that touches or moves the spirit/soul, not the event that is witnessed. It is that metaphorical 'touch' or 'movement' inside that makes something spiritual.

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

What if there are living things on the earth that are different, physiologically and physically, from the material we can normally see and experience. Many of us believe in black holes, black energy, and gravity and cannot see or measure them. What if these gods aren’t gods, and these spirits aren’t spirits, but are naturally occurring entities on earth?

First, I don't believe in ghosts so my view is coloured by that. I think the 'supernatural' is two things: it is a spiritual interpretation of events, such as when omens are interpreted to be a message; and it is the immaterial (conceptual) thing interpreted, in aspect to the material, such as demons that are interpreted to inhabit a body to deliver a particular message.

To address your scenario, if these magical beasties that are different physiologically and physically cannot be seen and experienced, then they fit most definitions of supernatural. Being supernatural does not preclude them from occuring naturally, just from occuring in the natural world. 'Supernatural' is not quite the same as 'not a part of nature', although yeah it's often interpreted as such. However, in my view, it does preclude them from occuring apart from anything material, in which their effects can be observed and interpreted, and apart from mankind who must be present to interpret their existence. If we can't know they are there, then they might as well not be ('Stargate SG-1' did a wonderful episode about that).

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

What would that mean for religion if we came to know them as such? Would we still worship them if we knew they were natural, as opposed to supernatural?

I think it would be devastating for religion to have these known gods. Idealists would have to stop believing as they do, because now god is a fact of nature, not a matter of conscious faith. Literalists would have to stop believing at all when they found out the god they thought was real is an invisible beasite who doesn't adhere to their written word. Monothesists would have to stop believing in the One True God. Possibly only the animists and pantheists would be celebrating.


(just wanted to use that smilie)

[Radio Frequency X]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

You pose the question as if they are conflicting ideas. The physical and natural exists because of the spirit. They are not one against the other. How could they be? Science cannot be against it's own Creator.

Everything owes it's existence to spirit for it is the energy that creates it.

There are no 'gods'. There are many levels of ascending and descending beings, some are very powerful, they need to be in order to serve their purpose.

But there is only one Creator.

But there is still no evidence of spirit. What I am saying is if there is no spirit, but there are still natural entities out there that exist, that are the things behind our idea of gods. Nothing owes itself to spirit.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

But there is still no evidence of spirit. What I am saying is if there is no spirit, but there are still natural entities out there that exist, that are the things behind our idea of gods. Nothing owes itself to spirit.

It's an expression of belief; he's got his, you got yours, and Narry the Twain shall meet.

Why couldn't your immaterial natural entities be spirit?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by nutshell

Here's where we'll part in our opinion. Just because the gods are natural does not mean they aren't creators and that they aren't controlling creation.

Logically, something cannot create itself. Of course, our philosophies are not limited to logic; but consider that if something creates a thing of which it is a part, then it created (at least a part of) itself. Does your philosophy say that god created itself?

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

But there is still no evidence of spirit. What I am saying is if there is no spirit, but there are still natural entities out there that exist, that are the things behind our idea of gods. Nothing owes itself to spirit.

No evidence for spirit?

Does not a tree change when it dies? What about a human being?

Machines can keep the lungs breathing and blood flowing but once the spirit is gone it will not return.

Everything owes itself to spirit. Atoms and EMR do not create themselves.

[nutshell]

Spirit = Natural entity

I think we probably disagree on that, but I wanted to clarify my position.

[MaddLlama]

Man, I'm gonna sound like such a nerd but here goes:

In Star Trek: DS9, the Bajoran people believe exactly that. There are aliens who are beyond linear time and space, but sometimes take physical form. Even though these aliens are not Gods, he Bajorans worship them as such, and they in return do give back to the people.

Personally I think the Bajoran spiritual heritage is incredibly beautiful.