Free will, determanism and all that (choices, choice)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by stemann

There must be a Creator of God.

Why?...

[stemann]

Originally Posted by Victor

Why?...

Because the essence of God is so complex in form that it is impossible for it to have arisen through chance.

[mr.guy]

Zing!

[Victor]

Originally Posted by stemann

Because the essence of God is so complex in form that it is impossible for it to have arisen through chance.

The essence? In form?

You would certainly impress me if you knew what God was made of. Unless I misunderstood you, it sounds like you are saying that "something" created God. Making him subject to "something" else. Hence, he wouldn't be much of a God.

[stemann]

Originally Posted by Victor

The essence? In form?

You would certainly impress me if you knew what God was made of. Unless I misunderstood you, it sounds like you are saying that "something" created God. Making him subject to "something" else. Hence, he wouldn't be much of a God.

Your terminology is confusing yourself; I think: He can't not be much of a God because He is the God.

I don't know what God is made of, but I assume Theists don't know what quarks are made of- although they are rather sure that they must have been created by a consciousness.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Victor

...it sounds like you are saying that "something" created God. Making him subject to "something" else. Hence, he wouldn't be much of a God.

I have a hunch he's just pointing out the flaw of the old "watchmaker" arguement. Namely for a being to create a complex universe, said being must be even more complex than the universe that it creates. And if so...where would a complex being like "God" come from? Logically, God's creator/source would need to be an EVEN MORE complex being. And so on.

[stemann]

Originally Posted by Faint

I have a hunch he's just pointing out the flaw of the old "watchmaker" arguement. Namely for a being to create a complex universe, said being must be even more complex than the universe that it creates. And if so...where would a complex being like "God" come from? Logically, God's creator/source would need to be an EVEN MORE complex being. And so on.

I just can't find a way to put it any more succinctly than Bertrand Russell, who said something like:

If the universe needs a cause, why doesn't God?

If God needs no cause, then I can just as logically say that the Universe does not.

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by stemann

I just can't find a way to put it any more succinctly than Bertrand Russell, who said something like:

If the universe needs a cause, why doesn't God?

If God needs no cause, then I can just as logically say that the Universe does not.

Bring out the prizes!

[PureX]

Originally Posted by stemann

I just can't find a way to put it any more succinctly than Bertrand Russell, who said something like:

If the universe needs a cause, why doesn't God?

If God needs no cause, then I can just as logically say that the Universe does not.

But when one defines the universe as finite, and "God" as infinite, that point becomes moot. And the real question becomes why have they chosen to define the universe and God as they have? And the answer to that question isn't going to be found in rationalism, but in subjectivism. Which is why throwing logic at a 'believer' never works.

[stemann]

So we are using an Ontological argument here, if we are going to start defining God as things. Like you say, PureX, it is subjective since people sometimes tend to believe that the universe cannot "just" appear for no "reason."