Free will, determanism and all that (choices, choice)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by PureX

I disagree that atoms can't act spontaneously. Independently they may not, but collectively, they may. Atoms, collected in a specific sequence, can create a thought. And thoughts, when collected and compared, create choices, which in turn can dictate the behavior of the collection of atoms.

Funny, I was thinking it was the opposite. That individually particles can be unpredictable (cf. Heisenberg), but collectively, they are predictable.

[PureX]

Well, as I understand it, everything that exists is as it is because energy behaves as it does, and does not behave otherwise. So if one of the main characteristics of "God" is as creator, then whatever this "logos" is that's governing the behavior of energy (everything that exists, exists as some form of energy after all), it would by definition be the mind and intent of "God".

Some folks think that because the rules that govern matter and energy are "locked in", that everything that exists, exists as it does according to the arrangement of the energy at the very beginning (the big bang). The theory is that the rules governed the event of creation strictly, ever since, and so if we were smart enough, we could follow the chain of cause and effect according to these rules back to the arrangement in the beginning, and then forward again to things as they are now. And there could be no deviation.

But I disagree. I think it's now obvious to us, through science, that the "rules" that are governing the nature of existence include chance, and thus are not possible for us or anyone to extrapolate backwards and forwards, and in fact if the event of existence were to be played backward, it would not play back to any configuration that has ever existed, nor would it play forward to the same result as today.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Booko

Funny, I was thinking it was the opposite. That individually particles can be unpredictable (cf. Heisenberg), but collectively, they are predictable.

Good point, but that unpredictability is on a very minute scale. It's where chance entered creation, and why I don't believe that existence was/is predetermined. But I'd say that's somewhat of a separate issue from free will, which comes from transcendence rather then from quantum degrees of chance. (Though I'm sure they are related in the end.)

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I don't know that much about energy.

I think that the answer to "what is god?" is in how we view our 'self'.

Or that we CAN view our self, maybe! hehe

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Booko

Funny, I was thinking it was the opposite. That individually particles can be unpredictable (cf. Heisenberg), but collectively, they are predictable.

They are predictable as far as how they bond and what/whom they are attracted to. The predictability along side energy still leaves some questions that we do not have answers for.

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by PureX

But I disagree. I think it's now obvious to us, through science, that the "rules" that are governing the nature of existence include chance, and thus are not possible for us or anyone to extrapolate backwards and forwards, and in fact if the event of existence were to be played backward, it would not play back to any configuration that has ever existed, nor would it play forward to the same result as today.

It interests me greatly that you seem to believe this with a degreee of conviction, could you suggest where I might find some worthwhile reading material in regards?

Thanks.

[Kungfuzed]

Take a pair of dice for example. It's difficult to guess what the numbers will be when you roll them. However, this doesn't mean that they have somehow avoided or trancended the laws of physics to arrive at their current positions. The numbers that the dice arrive at are entirely detirmined by cause and effect. The dice were thrown with a certian ammount of force, spin, and trajectory. They collide with the table several times and slow down by friction until they roll to a stop. Once the dice are set into motion the outcome is inevitable, regardless of our ability to predict it. Chance is just an illusion created by our inability to observe and calculate every single variable. Why should it be any different with our neurons?

How could our thoughts control our neurons? They are one and the same. Neurons are deterministic and the pattern they fire in IS our thoughts. There are no thoughts that generate without the neurons that turn around and tell them what to do.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

Take a pair of dice for example. It's difficult to guess what the numbers will be when you roll them. However, this doesn't mean that they have somehow avoided or trancended the laws of physics to arrive at their current positions. The numbers that the dice arrive at are entirely detirmined by cause and effect. The dice were thrown with a certian ammount of force, spin, and trajectory. They collide with the table several times and slow down by friction until they roll to a stop. Once the dice are set into motion the outcome is inevitable, regardless of our ability to predict it.

And yet, it is our inability to predict the outcome that allows for the roll to be random and the outcome to be chance.

There are two perspectives at work describing reality --objective and subjective --and both are real.

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

Chance is just an illusion created by our inability to observe and calculate every single variable.

An illusion that undeniably exists, and as such should not be excluded as a part of our description of reality.

Originally Posted by Kungfuzed

Why should it be any different with our neurons?

How could our thoughts control our neurons? They are one and the same. Neurons are deterministic and the pattern they fire in IS our thoughts. There are no thoughts that generate without the neurons that turn around and tell them what to do.

I'm not enamoured of the description of thoughts having abilities of their own (I've always envisioned them as output, too) but have you never calmed yourself in a crisis just by thinking about it? Perhaps that's the sort of things PureX meant.