Free will, determanism and all that (choices, choice)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by PureX

Obviously, we don't know the specific sequence, and even if were listed in front of us, what good would it do us? Are you suggesting that atoms (mater and energy interacting according to their nature) do not create thoughts? If not, then how do you think thoughts are created?

I think they do in conjuction with the "self" (soul, spirit, or what have you). Both are unevidenced and yet I believe in both.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Victor

I think they do in conjuction with the "self" (soul, spirit, or what have you). Both are unevidenced and yet I believe in both.

I don't necessarily disagree. But we have no evidence that would suggest to us that the "soul" or "spirit" exist independently of the physical interaction that creates the idea of them. My quess would be that they are all part of the same phenomenon.

Why does energy behave as it does? What "logos" is governing the possibilities and limitations that cause energy to behave only as it does, rather than say, completely randomly? And isn't the specific behavior of energy, and of all the phenomena that results from it (including us), a direct expression of that "logos", then?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by PureX

Sure, but that "us" is itself a thought-complex (an idea). That's the amazing thing, to me. That matter and energy, interacting according to it's own nature, can create ideas that can in turn transcend (manipulate) itself.

So thought-complexes have free will. Okay.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by PureX

I don't necessarily disagree. But we have no evidence that would suggest to us that the "soul" or "spirit" exist independently of the physical interaction that creates the idea of them. My quess would be that they are all part of the same phenomenon.

Why does energy behave as it does? What "logos" is governing the possibilities and limitations that cause energy to behave only as it does, rather than say, completely randomly? And isn't the specific behavior of energy, and of all the phenomena that results from it (including us), a direct expression of that "logos", then?

All good questions. None of which I know the answer to. But I believe the "self" does play a role in the tangible world. To the point of modifying my thoughts and actions. It can exist independent or dependent of that which is tangible.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Willamena

So thought-complexes have free will. Okay.

I would say yes, because they are not subject to the same limitations as the matter and energy that created them. They HAVE limitations, but not the same physical limitations as the components that created them. This is why I would say that they have transcended the sum of their parts (gestalt).

It's like, a collection of dots exist in three-dimensional space, and as a collection, they are subject to the possibilities and limitations of three-dimensional space. The individual dots, however, exist only in one-dimensional space, and are therefor subject only to the possibilities and limitations of one-dimensional space.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by PureX

I don't necessarily disagree. But we have no evidence that would suggest to us that the "soul" or "spirit" exist independently of the physical interaction that creates the idea of them. My quess would be that they are all part of the same phenomenon.

I agree. Being as it is declared immaterial, we can have no physical evidence of the spirit's existence, but we do have evidence of effects, such as these manipulations of thought. We can attribute them to 'thought complexes' or to a 'self', the same; since one is immaterial, it really doesn't matter which we attribute it to.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by PureX

I would say yes, because they are not subject to the same limitations as the matter and energy that created them...

I would simply say "yes," because they are the ones attributed with the ability to manipulate.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Victor

All good questions. None of which I know the answer to. But I believe the "self" does play a role in the tangible world. To the point of modifying my thoughts and actions. It can exist independent or dependent of that which is tangible.

I agree. I would say that self-awareness is proof that we can cognate independently of the forces that created us. And if we can cognate independently, we can act independently.