Christian Homosexual Referendum (beliefs, minority, homosexuality, choice, evolution)

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason

I appreciate that Scott, but when someone commits murder or steals something, there is a victim. So, for me, that would be a discerning factor.

Thanks,
TVOR

Got ya..... a victim is sometimes a arguable thing.... ie what constitutes a victim ... who decides?..... but I get what ya mean.

Scott

[Fluffy]

TVOR stated that "Anyone that would deny the rights to a minority that the majority enjoys is guilty of discrimination."

The majority in most societies does not enjoy the right to murder nor steal. Therefore laws that prevent the whole of society from doing something under normal circumstances are not discriminating since they are applied to the whole of society not a small section. Preventing same sex marriages is the equivilant of forcing Jews to wear stars since it targets a minority not the entirety and is therefore discrimination.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason

I'm not a Christian, but my comment is this: Anyone that would deny the rights to a minority that the majority enjoys is guilty of discrimination. You may claim it on religious grounds, or you may argue that it is moral for this reason or that, but in the end, it is discrimination. Have the integrity to say that you discriminate.

To thine own self, be true. - William Shakespeare

TVOR

It can't be discrimination because it's the Christian bible's rules that determine if one is Christian so regardless of a countries laws and statutes they are irrelavant. A Christian or civil marriage is still a marriage according to Romans 13:1-5, but only the ones adhering to the rules in the scriptures are really Christian in God's eyes. Go ahead and get married I say. Just don't try to say you're a Christian.

The scriptures clearly say men shouldn't have relations with men and women shouldn't have relations with women. Those that want to examine the scriptures with their microscopes and then take apart newer translations over old or rely on some that sound closer to what they wish will do so no matter what. Are they really Christian then? Yes and No. The one scripture says to 'test everything to see whether the rules are from men or from God'. So they may be testing them out, but when those who deny the facts of just what defines a woman and what defines a man means towards each other and the obvious procreation thing that both can accomplish together to say it's up to the individual and I'm not going to judge is kind of crazy. Women can't have children without help from medical science if they have no man husband and the same goes true for Men not being able to father children with another man period. You can be as loving to each other all you want but you are still going against gravity here.

The Christian God made us one way for a reason and everyone who's anyone knows what that reason is. To make and take care of babies. It doesn't really matter about those that never do because there are always those that will which will keep the human race going.

So in the end it's up to the scriptures to decide if one is "Christian" or not and not some courtroom or justice of the peace. The marriage license is a legal document that is a derivative of the law in the land as to whom can marry whom on the record books. So you can be married same sex or different sex all you want, it's just God will accept those who are different sex as the Christians and it's not up for debate or he wouldn't have made different sexes to begin with. He would have made us all one kind and born pregnant or like amoeba's(sp?).

[The Voice of Reason]

Originally Posted by t3gah

It can't be discrimination because it's the Christian bible's rules that determine if one is Christian so regardless of a countries laws and statutes they are irrelavant.

As I said in my original post, you may make whatever claims you wish regarding the rights of homosexuals to marry, but what you base them on is irrelevant - you are still discriminating. As a matter of fact, if you choose to discriminate based on a self-righteous claim to the moral high ground, you are also a bigot. You can lie to yourself if you choose, but it does not change reality.

Originally Posted by t3gah

A Christian or civil marriage is still a marriage according to Romans 13:1-5, but only the ones adhering to the rules in the scriptures are really Christian in God's eyes. Go ahead and get married I say. Just don't try to say you're a Christian.

I will not debate the validity of someone's "Christianity" with you. That is between yourself and any self proclaimed Christians that disagree with your bigotry.

Thanks,
TVOR

[huajiro]

It all comes down to this: would any of the heterosexuals want someone telling them they can't get married? No.

Marriage supposedly comes from "God"...."God" never told me that it was wrong for homosexuals to get married, has he spoken to you?

If I were gay, I would be one upset individual.

[The Voice of Reason]

We agree, Huajiro. Only, I'd go a little further, though, and say that I'm not gay, and I'm upset anyway.

TVOR

[t3gah]

Let the scriptures do the talking...

[World English Bible]

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, 1:9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1:10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine; 1:11 according to the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


Romans 1:26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error.


1 Corinthians 6:9 Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.


Leviticus 18:22 “‘You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestable.


Leviticus 20:13 “‘If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Romans 2:13 For it isn’t the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified


James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 1:24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom, and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.


John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.


John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.


1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Whoever loves the Father also loves the child who is born of him. 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

[DrM]

Jesus did not address hoosexuality. His "followers" did but he didn't. However, he spoke very loudly about mankind when he poured out his life on the cross as an ultimate act of LOVE. I must go with the act as opposed to the words.

You picked and chose passages from Leviticus. Those very passages address other absurdities. . .read further.

Again, I go back to what Christ reportedly said on the cross. . . . . ."Forgive them for they know not what they do." And he gave his life as his ultimate gift of LOVE which I assume includes those who may be disguisting to some of us who may include homosexuals.

[t3gah]

His followers? Jesus revealed himself to Saul (Paul). "I shall show you things that are and must be". Sounds like Paul got the works as to what was bad and what was good. And the "followers" all knew the Law, the Mosaic Law, in which God tells everyone what he trully likes and dislikes. Jesus even says that "he and the father are one" as in opinions and laws.

The followers are stating the obvious to all those who have read the scrolls which is a command in Joshua 1:8 and Psalms 1:2. Except of course in the case of those who are gentiles.

There's still James statement to change the course of someone who's sinning and doesn't know it.

[American Standard Version]

James 5:19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason

As I said in my original post, you may make whatever claims you wish regarding the rights of homosexuals to marry, but what you base them on is irrelevant - you are still discriminating. As a matter of fact, if you choose to discriminate based on a self-righteous claim to the moral high ground, you are also a bigot. You can lie to yourself if you choose, but it does not change reality.

I will not debate the validity of someone's "Christianity" with you. That is between yourself and any self proclaimed Christians that disagree with your bigotry.

Thanks,
TVOR

You see I saw the title 'Christian' on this thread. The definition of a Christian is someone who cares about others. James 5:19, 20 state what real Christians are supposed to do when it's a deliberate sin. And as for debating, this is a religious debate forum. Turning the other way if you're a Christian makes what you have just done a sin too. So the Christian that doesn't act is killing himself and the other person. National policy or Government laws do not define Christianity. The bible/scrolls do.

So if a persons is following God's laws and not mans, he cannot be descriminating towards homosexuality because the bible speaks for itself. Jesus didn't come to change God's viewpoint on things. He even went as far to say that "he and the father are one".

There's even a scripture where the apostles are before the 'government' of the time and they are being grilled as to why they were still preaching the word of Jesus throughout the city when the apostles and disciples were ordered not to. The response from the apostles was this:

"We must honor God as ruler rather than men."