Why is belief in God important? (punishment, Creator, salvation, soul)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

What about the atheists/humanists who "extend their faculties beyond the empirical plane" without a belief in god? Are their efforts less worthy because of their lack of faith? If this "extension" is the goal of god, why require belief if it can occur without it?

God can choose to allow anyone into an eternal relationship with Him. Whether that person came through via the norm of religion/spirituality or via his own conscious without even believing in God for whatever reason. Ultimately I have no idea how God will "grade" those who are outside the norm of what was revealed.

[BrandonE]

Originally Posted by Victor

God can choose to allow anyone into an eternal relationship with Him. Whether that person came through via the norm of religion/spirituality or via his own conscious without even believing in God for whatever reason. Ultimately I have no idea how God will "grade" those who are outside the norm of what was revealed.

Fair enough. So belief in God is important, but may not be necessary?

On a more general note, I find this thread very interesting. It's helped me to further consider much of my motivation for being UU. I can't believe in exclusivity based upon professed belief alone, and I hope for (have faith in even) universalism.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by BrandonE

Fair enough. So belief in God is important, but may not be necessary?

It's necessary for those who have already begun the process.

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I will have to largely talk about Christianity since this is the religion I am most familiar with but this debate doesn't necessarily have to be limited to this one religion.

What I cannot understand is why God requires me to believe in him in order to attain salvation and it is this that I wish to debate. Lets look at a few possibilities.

It seems evident that any rational person, if presented with very convincing evidence for God's existence, would believe in God. However, there are many rational people who do not believe in God. Therefore, we can see that God has not presented convincing evidence to all the people on the planet or at least not all the rational ones.

If God wishes us to acknowledge his existence then is it not fair to ask of him evidence to this end? It is clear that some people believe they have accessed a greater amount of evidence for God's existence that others (eg those who witnessed the resurrection). Surely everybody should all be given access to an equal amount of evidence otherwise it is unfair to require faith from us. God's position is further threatened when we consider the belief that he is the creator of the world... a place where people can die at birth or die before they believe in him. He is not simply making it impossible for every rational person to believe in him but he has also created a system which predisposes an inability of belief.

It would seem irrational to expect two people to accept that I was holding up 4 fingers when one had perfect vision and the other was blind. It borders on cruelty when I threaten them both with a beating if they refuse to accept this fact. And I would be viewed at the very least as incredibly stupid if I had blinded the 2nd person at birth yet still expected this from him.

Furthermore, what is God actually gaining from our belief in him? Why is it so important to him that he offers salvation only to those who accept it?

God does not require that you believe in Him. Faith has no requirements, it means make a sincere attempt.

We are purposely separated from God. The universe is designed to be a free will universe and the earth is the newest and most daring attempt at giving free will to every kind of creature: humanoid, reptilian, avian, fish, and plant. But they are biologic robots whereas we have sentience.

You can use your sentience to further yourself only as many do or you can choose to see a great system that you are a part of and do everything you can to make it better.

You want evidence? Is not the universe evidence enough? Do you have any idea how complicated it is? How gigantic? Do you think the incredible biologic code that gives an ant the ability to find food and communicate it's whereabouts to others is simply something that randomly comes with time?

Salvation is not an offer, it is a choice. You can choose self or you can choose the universe. Which is it?

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

Basically, I am looking for a reason for believing in God that I could gain without first having to believe in that God. For example, believing in God so that I don't get sent to hell is not an acceptable reason since this has the prerequisite of a belief in a God who will send me to God if I do not believe in him.

If there is no such reason then I wish to know why God expects it of us, why some people are given more of a chance to meet his expectations that others, why he has created a system in which he knew some people would never be able to meet his expectations and why meeting his expectations are important enough to decide whether we go to heaven or hell.

I realise that this concept is currently rejected by a lot of Christians who instead feel that leading a good life is more important and that faith is irrelevant. However, scripturally, there is plenty of evidence for this concept.

Scripture? If scripture makes you believe that God is at fault for everything or anything at all then toss it aside, cut it off like a diseased limb.

You want God to prove Himself to you before you will give Him your precious attention.

How about taking a different stance for once. For one week give Him the benefit of the doubt. Everything you experience for one week look for a reason to believe that God exists.

Maybe a traffic accident happened because someone was selfish and was driving too fast? Isn't there a little voice inside all of us that reminds us when we are driving too fast? Aren't there signs up? Can't we tell when we are passing other vehicles? Maybe God could have stopped that person from driving like that but then we do not have free will. We cannot decide for ourselves that we are going to obey the speed limits if God always stepped in to prevent accidents. We learn nothing.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

It is not necesary to believe in deity to love, is it?

Nope... there is a little bit of God in every one of us!

[Victor]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Nope... there is a little bit of God in every one of us!

yup yup...

[gramps]

First of all I would like to say that the Ten Commandments were given, not so much as to hinder man from enjoying life to the fullest, but is given as a pathway to happiness. And as to having to believe in God to be saved; that is an incorrect teaching. When Adam sinned he caused the entire earth's population to be lost spiritually forever since none of could be resurrected from the dead. Christ overcame that sin and provided a new way, in place of animal sacrifice and circumcision to find forgiveness. In place of those things he sent John the baptist before him to prepare the way of God before him as it is written in the Bible. When Christ suffered, bleed and died he did it for all mankind not just one particular group of people. Now we can all be resurrected from the dead, which is really what the term "Salvation" actually means. Ephesians 4: 11-13 informs us that every single person on this earth will become as perfect as Jesus Christ. Even though I am a Mormon I know this concept is true.
1 Corinthians 15: 19 IF in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.
The LDS believe there was a first earth. Well, most of them may not believe it but their scriptrues teach it. That first earth ended in despair. There was no God, no scriptures, no Savior and so on. That world was brought to an end by the person or God who first created it because of all the grief, heartache, suffering, for all the mistakes they made. That is why and when the Ten Commandments were provided as the pathway to joy and happiness.
A kind loving Father would not allow one of his people to be lost; at least forever. Oh, don't get me wrong, there is a punishment affixed to every sin and the punishment is at times very harsh, such as burning to death during the tribulation. But at the same time look down through all of history and see if it wasn't when a nation or individual became sinful that they suffered. As long as man obeyed his God they did not suffer.
This life is just the beginning of our schooling. I would say that some of us are in the first grade but none of us are ready to graduate yet. This earth is what the Mormons call the Telestial Kingdom of Heaven. When Christ returns this earth will then be the Terrestrail Kingdom of Heaven. When the sun explodes and divides in three parts, as explained in Revelation, then what remains of the sun, the Pulsar, or the great city will cover the earth. That is when the earth attains to the Celestial or highest Kingdom of heaven.
In the book Doctrine and Covenants 19 it explains what everlasting and eternal punishment actually is. But believe me when I say that it is written that there is no punishment that last forever.
So far as us knowing God, we all have the power or the right to communicate with him directly and like the scriptures tells us; "We do not need any man to teach us"
1 John 2: 27 The anointing which you have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you. But the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you ye shall abide in him.

There is so much more but what I have written, I'm sure, will suffice.

gramps

[Poster]

It could also be argued that the absence of proof is proof that religion was created by man as a form of domination, what better way could you find to keep people in their place, not to fear you, but to fear what will happen to them when they die if they break the rules, and if those rules include not stealing or converting what someone else has, the haves can keep what they have and enjoy life without the fear that it will be taken from them, the havenots will just dream of a wonderful next life and suffer this one, religion is better than having an army because an army can be fought but you can never fight an idea.
With religion people are kept in permanent fear of what will happen if they step out of line, eternal damnation, if you read what people thought would happen to them just a few hundred years ago
I don't think I would have stepped out of line either.