speculation of God (ritual, spiritual, faith, God, verse)

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by robtex

Has God ever been addressed adequately through logic? If so how?

The fathers of Greek logic (well there were pre-Socratic philosophers...)- Socrates and the Socratics believed that God existed. It was an assumption in their logic. Today, naturalism is the basic assumption for logic because of the scientific method, which I think has its *ultimate* roots in Socrates' questioning nature.

footnotes:
Xenophon's Description of Socrates
Intelligent Design in Xenophon
Cicero and the New Testament

Metaphysics is literally beyond physics, meaning it is not testable or physically verifable and by default is a product of belief and faith.

Sure it is. Now it seems that we're uncomfortable making metaphysical assumptions... and perhaps for good reason.

[bigvindaloo]

Originally Posted by robtex

Can and should the speculation on the existance of God be restricted to the areas of belief and faith only? Or are their other avenues to explore the existance of God upon in an academic sense?

Faith and belief are studied in academic sense as cultural "things" and also in psychology. They are never going to be at the level of study in physical sciences if that is what you mean by academia. Anyway I think you view religious faith as an abstract first-person notion removed from physical reality and observable by introspection only. This aspect would remain removed from enquiry. But otherwise academic exploration of faitha and belief rests on deciding how you want to measure it.

[robtex]

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

Faith and belief are studied in academic sense as cultural "things"

Wouldn't it be fair to call that "cultural thing" religion?

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

and also in psychology.

I would say the arguement from need is a great example of the psychology of religion: arguement from need

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

They are never going to be at the level of study in physical sciences if that is what you mean by academia.

It was an open-ended question without constraints.

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

I think you view religious faith as an abstract first-person notion removed from physical reality and observable by introspection only.

I would say reality is open to speculation however, for me reality is what is observable and measurable. I am asking if faith and belief are the only realities one can find God through? [/quote]

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

This aspect would remain removed from enquiry. But otherwise academic exploration of faitha and belief rests on deciding how you want to measure it.

Faith and belief cannot be measured. They can only be personally evaluated. Only that which is evidencable can be measured.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by bigvindaloo

Faith and belief are studied in academic sense as cultural "things" and also in psychology. They are never going to be at the level of study in physical sciences if that is what you mean by academia. Anyway I think you view religious faith as an abstract first-person notion removed from physical reality and observable by introspection only. This aspect would remain removed from enquiry. But otherwise academic exploration of faitha and belief rests on deciding how you want to measure it.

They are also studied as "humanities." That's the way that I study the NT. I'll have several degrees in the humanities - my religion and philosophy degrees are in the same academic category as literature, history, art, and music, while psychology is a science.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by robtex

Faith and belief cannot be measured. They can only be personally evaluated. Only that which is evidencable can be measured.

We certainly can define faith in such a way that we can measure it. Do you not agree that we can measure the beliefs of a person, especially if these beliefs are committed to paper? We can categorize and measure all beliefs that are written down, grouping the beliefs into classifications, trends, and degrees of severity. We can measure health benefits from actions based on beliefs, social and historical contexts and relationships that influence and are influenced by faith(s).

[robtex]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

We certainly can define faith in such a way that we can measure it. Do you not agree that we can measure the beliefs of a person,

We can measure the belief of a person but not the belief itself. Non-measurable does not = not existant. It just means non-measurable. The beliefs of a person are measurable against what is deemed as reality but as faith in belief in what is supernatural and/non-evidencable the belief itelf is beyond measurement.

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

especially if these beliefs are committed to paper? We can categorize and measure all beliefs that are written down, grouping the beliefs into classifications, trends, and degrees of severity. We can measure health benefits from actions based on beliefs, social and historical contexts and relationships that influence and are influenced by faith(s).

All of that is true and I suspect in a deeper point how you found God for yourself personally. However, that which is known as God is not that which can be quanitifed due to lack of evidence which is why I posed the opening question of is the speculation of God limited to faith and belief. The writing of literature I suspect, is likewise based on faith and belief. Even personal reveletation, as it a vision, a vision incidently no different than Paul had on the road to Damacus in the beginning of the book of Acts, and not a tangabile or measurable event, if the standards of measurement are that which we percieve with the 5 senses.

I think it is commonly accepted that faith and belief are paths to God and the point to the thread is if there was another way or if those two are the only ways.

[bigvindaloo]

Originally Posted by robtex

Wouldn't it be fair to call that "cultural thing" religion?


I would say the arguement from need is a great example of the psychology of religion: arguement from need


It was an open-ended question without constraints.

I would say reality is open to speculation however, for me reality is what is observable and measurable. I am asking if faith and belief are the only realities one can find God through?

Faith and belief cannot be measured. They can only be personally evaluated. Only that which is evidencable can be measured.[/quote]

I think you would have to find somebody who has found God and ask them if it is measurable. I would think not.

If you assert faith and belief cannot be measured but "can only be personally evaluated", how does that differ from a first-person perspective? Qualia - what?

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

The logical existence of God can and will be debated. I suggest you read Quantum and the Lotus forget who its by, but its a debate between a physicist and a Buddhist monk. Well a Buddhist that turned into a turn of the mill western kinda-atheist, in that he doesnt beleive in omnipotent God, physicist and a western professor of physics into a buddhist monk. Read the chapter "In search of the Great Watchmaker" for an answer to the quantative theory of God and of his logical existence or non-existence. Their solutions are quite interesting and sound logically. A middle ground so to speak. A contemplative science is how they describe the Buddhist approach t