Does the universe need a cause? (Creator, theist, eternal, point of view)

[pandamonk]

Many theists claim that the universe is so complex and orderly that it requires a causal explanation, the same as everything else in nature. An easy way to refute this is to say that if the universe needs a cause, then so must God. A response which is often given is that God is the cause, he exists outwith these natural laws. One response to this then, is that causal explanations are themselves products of natural laws which are themselves products of the universe, and cannot be used to explain the laws and universe. Perhaps there is no "cause"?

To say that the universe was caused, is to say that the "causer" adheres to natural laws. This therefore means that these laws existed before the cause, and therefore that they could not have been caused. It is therefore impossible for God to be the cause for natural laws, which are products of the universe. Being the creator of the universe is an attribute of God, so therefore he has lost, probably, his more vital attribute.

This is my take on an argument i just read, and therefore may not being what the writer fully intended. I'm interested to see any reponses, to show me where i went wrong, or to try and refute this argument.

Cheers

PM

[pandamonk]

Is noone interested in a debate on this topic/argument?

[michel]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Many theists claim that the universe is so complex and orderly that it requires a causal explanation, the same as everything else in nature. An easy way to refute this is to say that if the universe needs a cause, then so must God. A response which is often given is that God is the cause, he exists outwith these natural laws. One response to this then, is that causal explanations are themselves products of natural laws which are themselves products of the universe, and cannot be used to explain the laws and universe. Perhaps there is no "cause"?

To say that the universe was caused, is to say that the "causer" adheres to natural laws. This therefore means that these laws existed before the cause, and therefore that they could not have been caused. It is therefore impossible for God to be the cause for natural laws, which are products of the universe. Being the creator of the universe is an attribute of God, so therefore he has lost, probably, his more vital attribute.

This is my take on an argument i just read, and therefore may not being what the writer fully intended. I'm interested to see any reponses, to show me where i went wrong, or to try and refute this argument.

Cheers

PM

You won't get an argument from me, because I don't believe in the need for a causal explanation, neither for the Universe or from nature. They both just 'are'.

[ChrisP]

It doesn't need, because it obviously already has one from my point of view. It's in some people's nature to want to know who, what, how, when, why. I'm not going to deny them the fruits of such a pursuit... whatever those fruits must be

IMO we'd be better off thinking about tomorrow, because we are here. Now. Things are the way they are... we don't need to know why as long as we understand the nature of the now.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by michel

You won't get an argument from me, because I don't believe in the need for a causal explanation, neither for the Universe or from nature. They both just 'are'.

So are you saying that you don't believe God created nature and the unvierse?

[Radio Frequency X]

The universe does not require a cause. It could very well be eternal. Personally, I don't believe that the universe was caused. I think the universe is what exists.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

It doesn't need, because it obviously already has one from my point of view. It's in some people's nature to want to know who, what, how, when, why. I'm not going to deny them the fruits of such a pursuit... whatever those fruits must be

IMO we'd be better off thinking about tomorrow, because we are here. Now. Things are the way they are... we don't need to know why as long as we understand the nature of the now.

I don't understand what you mean? Do you believe that God created the universe and natural laws? Have you ever used the argument "that the universe is so complex and orderly that it requires a" creator? This is just an argument that claims that, if the universe or natural laws need a creator to exist then that adheres to the natural laws, and therefore natural laws cannot NEED a creator because if they did then they would be adhereing to the laws of themselves before they are created(does that make sense?).

[ChrisP]

I don't believe anything about the cause of the Universe. You're asking if the Universe needs some kind of kickstart from an intelligent being? I say, what does it matter. We are here now and that is there then. Anything anyone chooses to believe, including Big Bang theory is a matter of faith.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

I don't believe anything about the cause of the Universe. You're asking if the Universe needs some kind of kickstart from an intelligent being? I say, what does it matter. We are here now and that is there then. Anything anyone chooses to believe, including Big Bang theory is a matter of faith.

True, but many believe so much that they feel them must be right and everyone else must be wrong. Then they are told that the others must be killed. The argument many use to justify their belief in God is the one I have shown. So i attack the argument to plant a seed of doubt in their minds, and maybe help them to see sense. Unfortunately(or forunately) i doubt that anyone on these forums are extremists willing to kill, so I'm not getting my argument across to the right people, but i feel this is the closest i will get.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Radio Frequency X

The universe does not require a cause. It could very well be eternal. Personally, I don't believe that the universe was caused. I think the universe is what exists.

Well said.
Except, of course, then what causes existence?