Why God didn't make the body perfect? (creation, suicide, diseases)

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Do you have problem with verses pointing out scintifc facts because you don't believe that God might know about this or somthing?

Scientific facts? Each one of those points can be argued, and the fact that each verse from the quran is so vague, it can be taken to mean anything. And if that is all/the best scientific "facts" from the quran, then it is not all that special. Each point is maybe a sentence or so, compared to the rest of the quran, is that all that you have to go on?

• The first argument does not state that the world is round etc, only that the sky is not held up.
• The quran says that God created the unvierse, not that it was a bang etc. Not agreeing with science.
• quran says about heaven expanding, could be because many asked how all spirits would fit, and not through knowledge of universe.
• Orbit? The passage implies that the sun and moon orbit the earth. Where is the sun's "resting place"?
• Perfect harmony and order? Commits hit planets, galaxies collide, and unlike the video claims, it causes caos creating new planets and stars, etc.
• The "preserved and protected" sky? The speaker then goes on to show how it is preserving and protecting(ive).
• Seven regular heavens, earlier it stated that heaven meants space/the universe, now it is used to for sky? How do we know that this is what the writers intended?
• Mountains are pegs to keep from moving, but are in motion? They would have known that closer to the mountains there is more movement(earthquakes)
• Lead from space? Everything came from space!!
• Exploding stars = caos, not orderly....

And this is where i stopped watching

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

Why didn't God make the body perfect? Silly question, he did.

What is perfect about cancer, or any other disease. Are do saying that God is susceptible to disease etc?

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

What is perfect about cancer, or any other disease. Are do saying that God is susceptible to disease etc?

No, it's not silly, but if one understands the creation story correctly, the one can understand that he did create the body perfect, it was not until after the fall that the body of man was sustiple to cancer and other ailments

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

No, it's not silly, but if one understands the creation story correctly, the one can understand that he did create the body perfect, it was not until after the fall that the body of man was sustiple to cancer and other ailments

How do we know that God created the body perfectly? Obviously the brain/mind is part of the body, and they did not know evil. God knows both good and evil and is perfect, so there Adam and Eve could not have been as God because they did not know.

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

How do we know that God created the body perfectly? Obviously the brain/mind is part of the body, and they did not know evil. God knows both good and evil and is perfect, so there Adam and Eve could not have been as God because they did not know.

They weren't like God. They were created in the image, there is a difference there. Not exact replicas, but in the image. As I am created in the image of my physical parents.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Do you have problem with verses pointing out scintifc facts because you don't believe that God might know about this or somthing?

No, The Truth. I am all for science.

I have greatest regards or admiration for the Muslims in the (Western) Dark Ages and the medieval periods for their involvement in science, medicine, geography, astronomy, etc. They were well-ahead of their time, compared to the Western European kingdoms.

What I am against, is people selecting a verse here and passage there, that are very vague as to their meaning and open to wide interpretation, and Muslims using these quotes to claim that they are scientific. But they did so through actual scientific processes or approaches, not through the Qur'an.

You know what science is, don't you?

It is more than just sprouting theories or verses. It required observation, testing, experimentations, to either prove or disprove the foundation of that theory. This is used in order to improve our knowledge on nature or the mechanic of machine that can best aid our societies.

I dislike religious people in whatever religion that use these types of methods of saying "this is science" with vague verses that could literally mean anything.

I have come across a lot of these verses at islam.com before I came here at RF. I have argue quite extensively with Muslims over this very issue.

Tell me, have come across some of those quotes that Muslims that have interpreted as "scientific" to be absurd?

I am not talking about the quotes themselves from the Qur'an, but the so-called scientific interpretations.

Originally Posted by The Truth

Or it's the case that you want God to tell you in details hey gnostic, i'm your God by the way and the thing is like that and that???????

No, The Truth. If the verses were clear, and that it can't be misinterpret, then it is possibility, if it is properly investigated.

What's wrong it being clear and precise, anyway? If it was clear and precise, then you (I don't mean "you" in particular in this instance, but "you" as "Muslims in general")would not get so many misinterpretations. But this actually applied to all religions.

Often scriptures are coloured in flowery style or passages that are very symbolics, but it can have too many meanings, and therefore misinterpreted. You of all people should know that symbols can have many meanings, and quite often changes over time.

Look how some of the more extreme and militant Muslims, like OBL, taking quotes out of Qur'an and the Hadith, to recruit ignorant, impressionable Muslims to violences, because quoting from holy scripture is the best way brainwash a person to commit atrocity.

Originally Posted by The Truth

God doesn't need us but we need him, that's why he sent prophet Mohammed as a mercy to us.

Of course, he need you and other humans, otherwise he wouldn't give you in the Qur'an how to worship him and pray to him, and how many times to pray to him.

If he didn't need you then why does he demand a person must be execute for leaving the faith, which he called the "disbelievers". There's no free will if a person can't leave a religion without persecution or prosecution from the laws he said to have decreed.

There is a passage somewhere that I have read (I don't remember whether this is Qur'an or Hadith, perhaps you can find it), which state that read along the line of killing any disbelievers that they find who don't submit to Islam. Some Muslims tried to explain to me that such action are only use in self defence. But when I read that passage it had nothing to do with attacking enemies in self-defence.

Or was it really Allah's law? Was the law actually Muhammad's own peculiarity and upbringing? (That's difficult to say. I often sceptical about angelic visitation and revelation in any religion, because I don't believe in angels.)

No, my friend. If he Allah does exist, then he need you more than people needs him. The same thing can be said about Judaism and Christianity.

Originally Posted by The Truth

Allah knows well that even he showed such a thing in details people will still argue and debate it.

Sorry, TT, but I don't share that sentiments.

The more vague and symbolic the meanings, the more likely people will shed blood over it. If the wordings were clearer and more precise, perhaps the arguments wouldn't be as hot-headed.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Scientific facts? Each one of those points can be argued, and the fact that each verse from the quran is so vague, it can be taken to mean anything. And if that is all/the best scientific "facts" from the quran, then it is not all that special. Each point is maybe a sentence or so, compared to the rest of the quran, is that all that you have to go on?

• The first argument does not state that the world is round etc, only that the sky is not held up.
• The quran says that God created the unvierse, not that it was a bang etc. Not agreeing with science.
• quran says about heaven expanding, could be because many asked how all spirits would fit, and not through knowledge of universe.
• Orbit? The passage implies that the sun and moon orbit the earth. Where is the sun's "resting place"?
• Perfect harmony and order? Commits hit planets, galaxies collide, and unlike the video claims, it causes caos creating new planets and stars, etc.
• The "preserved and protected" sky? The speaker then goes on to show how it is preserving and protecting(ive).
• Seven regular heavens, earlier it stated that heaven meants space/the universe, now it is used to for sky? How do we know that this is what the writers intended?
• Mountains are pegs to keep from moving, but are in motion? They would have known that closer to the mountains there is more movement(earthquakes)
• Lead from space? Everything came from space!!
• Exploding stars = caos, not orderly....

And this is where i stopped watching

I will not argue with you about that because whatever sign i will produce, you will try to find any cause for it or assumption to fit what you want to believe in.

Therefore, i'll start with one single clear sign from Quran and believe me, i'm not here to challenge you and you are free to believe it or not.

Check out this CLEAR sign from God and tell me what do you think?
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/7...le_of_iron.php

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

They weren't like God. They were created in the image, there is a difference there. Not exact replicas, but in the image. As I am created in the image of my physical parents.

I meant like God, being perfect.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I will not argue with you about that because whatever sign i will produce, you will try to find any cause for it or assumption to fit what you want to believe in.

Therefore, i'll start with one single clear sign from Quran and believe me, i'm not here to challenge you and you are free to believe it or not.

Check out this CLEAR sign from God and tell me what do you think?
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/7...le_of_iron.php

That's what I meant when i said "Lead from space? Everything came from space!!", lol what was i talking about, lead? I meant Iron. The whole earth is made up of all these things sent down from space.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by gnostic

and Muslims using these quotes to claim that they are scientific. But they did so through actual scientific processes or approaches, not through the Qur'an.

Oh no, please don't misunderstand me. I never claimed anything about Muslims, i'm talking about God. God of all human beings.

Even though it's in the Quran, before we know this sign and analyze it we "human beings" won't be able to know it directly from Quran once it was revealed but generation after generation and with the cuurent modern scince people are discovering things then we find that it was in Quran since 1400 years and it's not the case that muslims are good in scince because they found that in Quran, NO.

Muslims were working through many scintific issues normally as you did mention ...

Such as:

Originally Posted by gnostic

observation, testing, experimentations, to either prove or disprove the foundation of that theory. This is used in order to improve our knowledge on nature or the mechanic of machine that can best aid our societies.

And they didn't claim (in the dark ages) that they found it out what they discovered because it was in Quran because they weren't aware that this verse or that means a scintfic fact whether within us, human beings or in the universe.

Tell me, have come across some of those quotes that Muslims that have interpreted as "scientific" to be absurd?

Of course, some people comes saying that verse mean that or that without backing it up but i used to reject it directly. Don't think i'm blind toward my religion.

No, The Truth. If the verses were clear, and that it can't be misinterpret, then it is possibility, if it is properly investigated.

Can you please have a look at least at the link in my pervious post # 117.

You of all people should know that symbols can have many meanings, and quite often changes over time.

I agree with you, even verses itself, we always discover somthing new about it because it's the words of God and what we might not understand now in it, our children in the future might do so. That's why Quran is not just somthing for history.

Look how some of the more extreme and militant Muslims, like OBL, taking quotes out of Qur'an and the Hadith, to recruit ignorant, impressionable Muslims to violences, because quoting from holy scripture is the best way brainwash a person to commit atrocity.

We don't agree in how people use the Quran to brainwash people but i guarntee you that those misguided people if it happenes that they read the verses themselves in context they would know the different but they never read it but to follow their leaders blindly. The problem is not in Quran but in their trust in untrustworthy people.

Of course, he need you and other humans, otherwise he wouldn't give you in the Qur'an how to worship him and pray to him, and how many times to pray to him.

God never explained for us how to worship him, how to pray to him, and how many times we should do so (is this enough to show that he doesn't need us because you depend in this statment?), but he just told us to worship him because he is the only one worthy for praying to and the only worthy one whom we must worship. Prophet Mohammed taught us then how to do so.

If he didn't need you then why does he demand a person must be execute for leaving the faith, which he called the "disbelievers". There's no free will if a person can't leave a religion without persecution or prosecution from the laws he said to have decreed.

God never mentioned executing the "disbelievers" in the Quran but only we found that in Hadith (saying of prophet Mohammed) and people took some of his words and left others. According to the scholars i have been contaced with they told me that prophet Mohammed ordered us to kill the one who leave his religion, leaving the community being against them, especially in the past where the community was very small and a disbeliever who wants to be against muslims might be very dangerous in taking secret of muslims and military numbers and facts for instance to the enem (traitor). Nevertheless, people just use the word kill the one who leave the religion without going on in the hadith to know the rest of the hadith. Anyway this is off-topic and i'll be glad to discuss with you about that if you want in another thread to not hijacke this one.

There is a passage somewhere that I have read (I don't remember whether this is Qur'an or Hadith, perhaps you can find it), which state that read along the line of killing any disbelievers that they find who don't submit to Islam. Some Muslims tried to explain to me that such action are only use in s