Universal Salvation? (Jesus Christ, ritual, moral, testimonies, punishment)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Human beings are finite creatures. No matter how much evil a human tries to commit, it is ultimately only a finite amount of harm. It would be unjust to inflict an infinite amount of punishment for a finite amount of sin. God is just. Therefore, no one will be condemned to eternal damnation. Everyone will be reconciled with God in due course of time.

I have one question for you, lilithu. Does your belief allow for individuals who sincerely do not want to be reconciled to God, or do you believe there are no such people? Mormonism grants that there may be a few that come to have a perfect knowledge of God and, having that knowledge, consciously reject Him. These are those that the Bible says have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost and cannot be forgiven, either in this life or the next. These will be infinitesimally few in number, but they be eternally damned. The vast, vast majority (even murderers, rapists, etc.) will eventually be granted some measure of heavenly glory.

[lunamoth]

I think my position has changed slightly from universal salvation to something more like 'universal choice.' Like the LDS, I think that if someone does not wish to be reconciled with and in harmony with the Source of Love and Being, they have that choice.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think my position has changed slightly from universal salvation to something more like 'universal choice.' Like the LDS, I think that if someone does not wish to be reconciled with and in harmony with the Source of Love and Being, they have that choice.

That makes sense. Is there a point at which a choice is considered "final" and irreversable? If we are eternal beings and we retain freedom of will, then couldn't one decide not to be reconsiled but then change his or her mind later, since we have forever?

If there's some seemingly arbitrary cutoff point, doesn't that mean free will has ended (assuming we ever really had it)?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

That makes sense. Is there a point at which a choice is considered "final" and irreversable?

I believe it would be at the "Final Judgment." I definitely don't believe it's at the moment of death.

If we are eternal beings and we retain freedom of will, then couldn't one decide not to be reconsiled but then change his or her mind later, since we have forever?

If there's some seemingly arbitrary cutoff point, doesn't that mean free will has ended (assuming we ever really had it)?

Free will doesn't mean that our choices are without consequences. The cut-off point will be in no way arbitrary. No one will be judged in ignorance.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I have one question for you, lilithu. Does your belief allow for individuals who sincerely do not want to be reconciled to God, or do you believe there are no such people? Mormonism grants that there may be a few that come to have a perfect knowledge of God and, having that knowledge, consciously reject Him. These are those that the Bible says have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost and cannot be forgiven, either in this life or the next. These will be infinitesimally few in number, but they be eternally damned. The vast, vast majority (even murderers, rapists, etc.) will eventually be granted some measure of heavenly glory.

Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife, because I don't believe in an eternal soul. The way I interpret universal salvation is that salvation is in this life, heaven is this earth when God's will is done on earth, and no one is saved unless everyone is saved. For me, salvation is communal. I do believe that we all ultimately return to God, since all is God, but not as individual souls.

What I was relating before was the argument given by my Universalist forefather, Hosea Ballou. He believed that after death, everyone went to heaven whether they wanted to or not. As you can imagine, many people thought that was preposterous. So the next generation there were "Restorationist Universalists." In this case, "restoration" meant restoring the doctrine back a bit. They still believed in universal salvation, but they believed that every person would have go through a process of reconciliation with God first. This makes more sense to me too.

As for the people who will choose to reject God regardless, my argument would be that God is infinitely patient. Perhaps not everyone goes to heaven, but no one is barred from it, ever. I simply do not understand the idea that there is a "cut-off date" after which it's too late and you're damned forever. it doesn't fit with Jesus' parables of the prodigal son and the lost lamb.

[zenzero]

Friend Elvendon,
Universal Salvation.
It is absolutely correct.
The easterner religious understanding is that the soul never dies and it remains by taking births till it achieves salvation / nirvana. One may be revolutionary and try and achieve nirvana in this life itself or be evolutionary and wait for many births till all desires are fulfilled and salvation / nirvana happens on its own accord.

Understanding the same concept in another way.
Everything comes from that Nothingness and when its function is over, goes back to Nothingness.

Everything is part of god and the human mind does not allow or creates barriers to allow that understanding but eventually it has to happen as it has to go back to its roots by nature.

Love & rgds

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Free will doesn't mean that our choices are without consequences. The cut-off point will be in no way arbitrary. No one will be judged in ignorance.

Agreed. Free will means having the ability to choose, which we apparently have for a while on the presumption that it's of great value, but then there's this Final Judgment at which time it's removed permanently. If we continue to be dynamic beings, what if after billions of millennia, someone has a change of heart or is tired of the life he or she chose? In the scheme of things, when one considers eternity, the existence of a cutoff point will inevitably mean that the amount of time we are forced to live with our decision will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time we had to make it. We would indeed be in ignorance of that kind of consequence, because we simply can't fathom the infinite, at least in our present state.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

If we continue to be dynamic beings, what if after billions of millennia, someone has a change of heart or is tired of the life he or she chose? In the scheme of things, when one considers eternity, the existence of a cutoff point will inevitably mean that the amount of time we are forced to live with our decision will be completely dwarfed by the amount of time we had to make it.

Exactly.