Universal Salvation? (Jesus Christ, ritual, moral, testimonies, punishment)

[crystalonyx]

"Surely god is good"

There is no universal law that says this must be so.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

It's almost more as if we were born believing them, that they are part of our being.

I can see how that might fit with what little I know of Mormon theology - specifically the part where we existed before incarnation, if anything of that existence carries forward. Coincidentally, it also fits with Calvinism's denial of free will in that faith is a "gift from God." I think people are predisposed to process information a certain way, kind of like being predisposed to left-handedness.

[Heneni]

If you believe that you chose god when you said the 'jesus come into my heart prayer', you cant believe in universal salvation, since not everybody else is doing it!

If you believe that god is a genie in a bottle, you wouldnt want everybody else to cash in as much as you are, hence universal salvation would not be true.

If you dont want to offend anyone you would want to believe universal salvation is true.

How much, of what WE want, is influencing our beliefs regarding universal salvation to be true or not?

Lets look at the word SALVATION....it means you need to be saved. Firstly a great deal of people dont believe they need salvation. Secondly a great deal of people who think they are saved, have no idea what from! Wouldnt it be ironic if the massas stand before god with no idea why they are there. God would have to fill them in...hey i saved you! And what would their response be? Oh...i didnt realise i needed saving.

Perhaps before we debate whether everyone is saved, we should consider what god came to save us for in the first place. If we understand that, it should be easy to determine whether everyone is saved.

If god came to save us, it means we were all doomed. NOT because of gods inadequacy, but because we got ourselves in a mess. It would be really odd, if god got us into this mess, and then comes to save us out of the mess he put us in.

But what is this mess we got ourselves into? Why is salvation so great? What is the big deal? For me it is not hard to understand the big deal. I know i messed up, and i know how, and i know that if it wasnt for him, id be unable to return to heaven.

Salvation is not about numbers, its about your personal story and history with god almighty.

Furthermore...I have tried but find it very hard, to believe that god is willing to forgive all humans their error, yet have no such intention with satan. If i want to believe in universal salvation, id have to believe that god would give satan a second chance as well. It would seem unfair, saving almost all of mankind and keep satan out of that salvation. Perhaps god is able to reinstate satan, but only if he realises his error, since if he doesnt, he is able to do it again. And the same goes for all humans. There is no point in us all going to heaven, and continuing our rebellion there. We would be most gratefull that we are 'saved' but would not have the character to sustain is in heaven, without getting ourselves into the same mess again.

From that perspective i dont think that everyone is saved, until such time that everyone has a change in character that would be able to sustain them in heaven. It also makes sense to me then, why we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Its not a matter to be taken lightly since it is indeed a matter of life or death.

Heneni

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I can see how that might fit with what little I know of Mormon theology - specifically the part where we existed before incarnation, if anything of that existence carries forward.

I hadn't thought of it in that light before, but you could have a point.

Coincidentally, it also fits with Calvinism's denial of free will in that faith is a "gift from God."

Oh dear! NO! I can see why, with a limited knowledge of Mormonism, you might think that, but I can assure you our beliefs could not possible be further removed from Calvinism. The thing about Mormonism is that we don't believe our ultimate "fate" is cast in concrete at the moment of death. Death is not the final curtain to us; it's more like an intermission. Learning and growing and free will continue between the time a person dies and the time he is resurrected. By the time the any of us stand before God to be judged, we will all have more than ample time to gain a true understanding of Him and what He expects of us, and the vast majority will end up making the choice that will lead to salvation. I've heard it said that we have the biggest heaven and the littlest hell of any Christian denomination, and that's a distinction I love to claim.

I think people are predisposed to process information a certain way, kind of like being predisposed to left-handedness.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of "the God gene"?

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Romans 14:11 appears to state otherwise. "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

That is not necessarily salvation. A person must bow down to the authority of Jesus whether they are saved or not. They have no other choice. As for confession, that need not be voluntary either since the record is in the book and there is no escaping it. This all takes place at the judgement seat of course:

Rom 11:10 But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment–seat of God.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Muffled

That is not necessarily salvation. A person must bow down to the authority of Jesus whether they are saved or not. They have no other choice. As for confession, that need not be voluntary either since the record is in the book and there is no escaping it.

I guess it all depends on how you define salvation. It's really hard for me to imagine billions of people bowing to Jesus and confessing that He is the Christ and then Him saying, "Thank you all very much. Hell's that-a-way." Doesn't that seem just a little out of character for Jesus to you?

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I guess it all depends on how you define salvation. It's really hard for me to imagine billions of people bowing to Jesus and confessing that He is the Christ and then Him saying, "Thank you all very much. Hell's that-a-way." Doesn't that seem just a little out of character for Jesus to you?

The devil also acknolwedges that Jesus is the Christ and recognizes His authority. Is he saved too?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Muffled

The devil also acknolwedges that Jesus is the Christ and recognizes His authority. Is he saved too?

So you see the billions who bow down to Him at the Last Judgment as being on par with the devil? If they are, no, I don't believe they would be saved. I guess I just see God as more merciful than you do and can't imagine Him damning billions of His own children to an eternity of suffering. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Heneni]

Originally Posted by Muffled

The devil also acknolwedges that Jesus is the Christ and recognizes His authority. Is he saved too?

Hello Muffled. I believe that satan was cast of heaven because he rejected that which created him and therefore wanted to be seperated from god, hence god gave him what he wanted.

I dont hink he is saved, if we believe that saved means returning to god, but i still hope that somehow god could make a way for satan, but i believe that depends on satan turning from his error. It might not happen in this age, but perhaps in ages to come, even after all of this has 'ended'.

It is clear from what happened in heaven, which we can call the great rebellion, that this event caused much suffering and heartache for those who rebelled. I dont think god would like that to happen again, for our own good, hence i dont believe universal salvation is possible unless the character of