Are Catholics Christians? (Jesus, hell, doctrine, church, agnostic)

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by linus

But I do not believe the catholic church has any valid religious authority.

So, in your opinion, who does?

[Linus]

The only one with authority is Christ, Because He is the head of the Church, and the church is His bride.

[Scott1]

The only one with authority is Christ, Because He is the head of the Church, and the church is His bride.

Head of which church? How many BRIDES does Jesus have?

Christ tells you what hymns to sing each Sunday? Christ came down and appointed your pastor?

[Master Vigil]

"After the gnostics......?.... no, not quite. The Catholic Church WAS Christianity for 1500 years before the "Reformation". The gnostics were 1st and 2nd century heretics.... St. Peter, Paul and the rest of early Catholics came a BIT before that!"

Actually the early christians weren't called catholics. Catholic wasn't the name until after the council of nicaea. The early christians were just that, christians. There were also the gnostics, but the gnostics were probably the first organized christians. The rest were spread out all over and actually worshipped in different ways. That was the reason for the council of nicaea. To bring them all together and decide on the one way to worship. It was only after the council they were known as catholics. So that was my reason for saying the gnostics were before catholics.

[Scott1]

mv,

Actually the early christians weren't called catholics. Catholic wasn't the name until after the council of nicaea.

Well, don't mean to be rude, but you are quite wrong. It would be interesting to see you site a reference or two, or is this just an "educated guess" on your part? To prove you wrong, take a look at this:
"Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.".. written by St. Ignatius of Antioch in the year 107. ( St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Smyrn. 8,2)

Now, was the council of nicaea before or after the year 107?

Peace,
Scott

In case you really don't know, the Council of Nicaea was in 325.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

Head of which church? How many BRIDES does Jesus have?

All local churches make up the "universal" church that includes all of God's people. So there is one Church. Therefore, Chist has one bride.

Ephesians 5:20 - the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 12:20 - But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

Christ tells you what hymns to sing each Sunday? Christ came down and appointed your pastor?

Why would I need to be TOLD what hymns to sing? Am I not capable of choosing for myself?

And I don't have a pastor or a minister or a priest because frankly I do not believe that they are authorized within the Bible as a role separate from any other christian. We are all ministers

2 Cor. 6:4 - But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

[Scott1]

master vigil,

There were also the gnostics, but the gnostics were probably the first organized christians. The rest were spread out all over and actually worshipped in different ways. That was the reason for the council of nicaea.

I can't believe I missed this the first time. The Council of Nicaea was called specifically to combat the heresy of Arius (Arianism). The Pope and the Emperor called BISHOPS to Nicaea to condemn this heresy and anathemized Arius. How could the Pope and Bishops meet in council, kick someone out of their Church.....worshiping in different ways. The Council is actually evidence AGAINST your assumption that the Church was not organized. If that were the case, there would have been no need for the 318 Bishops to meet together.

Who's next?

Peace,
Scott

[Master Vigil]

I apologize, the catholic church was around before the council of nicea. However, the term catholic in which St. Ignatius was referring to was just the simple word catholic, or universal as it was used before 150 C.E. In Man's Religions, fourth edition, by John B. Noss, he shows how the ancient Catholic church shows up around 150 C.E. It was then that they decided to formulate and develop a system of doctrine, and an organization. There were still many different christians who were "catholic" but worshipped in different ways with different points of view on things. Such as the divinity of jesus and the holy trinity. This was the reason for the Council of Nicea. To bring all of the bishops and such of the "catholic" church together to clarify things. In The World's Religions by Huston Smith, he says it wasn't until after the council in the year 380 that it was declared an official religion of rome. The gnostics however were around before 150 C.E. and were thought by many to be the first to bring together the gospels. (With some that they believed in thrown away, but I won't get into that.) I quote my religon professor with that.

[The Voice of Reason]

I'm laughing as I watch Master and SOG debate this "gnostic and Catholic" (or is that the chicken and the egg). I think you have both answered my original question as to whether or not Catholics are Christians. I thank you for the input.

May the road rise to meet you,
TVOR