If there was no God, could we then have "truth" (Jesus, God)

[Paraprakrti]

Right now, if God did not exist, and overlooking the fact that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if such was the case...

this world, these interactions between the senses and the objects experienced by the senses would simply be without any value whatsoever. We could try to concoct a value relative to our own fleeting perception, but we can't define truth. In order for us to define truth in that way we would have to be God. If we are speaking of absolute truth, and God constitutes this absolute, then yes, God exists otherwise no truth exists.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by thomasedison

Reality is not relative. How could truth be? A tree is a tree no matter whether it is seen by a man or a woman, a Muslim or a Christian, a man or a dog.

Good point. But I think I'm seeing things more from a religious perspective. If there was no God then religious and moral belief systems would be defined by the individual. God would not be there to say that murder is wrong, so maybe someone would think it's is a just punishment for something like theft, lieing, or cheating.

[thomasedison]

Murder cannot justified for theft, lying or cheating. Justice implies trade. Justice means taking what one deserves and giving what one owes, neither more, nor less. Punishing theft with murder would be contrary to the principle of justice and trade. It would be like account overdrawn.

[Mr Spinkles]

Good point. But I think I'm seeing things more from a religious perspective. If there was no God then religious and moral belief systems would be defined by the individual.

But religious and moral belief systems are defined by the individual (with the influence of society of course). If religious and moral belief systems were defined by God, why do we have the diversity of Greek paganism, Naziism, Catholicism, Satanism, and Wicca?

Some may claim God is the only source of truth; however, the fact of the matter is that none of these people seem to be able to agree on what that truth is! Countless numbers of people claim to speak on God's behalf, but until God speaks to each and every one of us Himself, without fallible human middlemen, we can't be sure. Ultimately, whether or not there is a God, we are on our own to discover what is true and what is not (and I'd say so far we have made notable progress). Until some booming voice comes down from the sky and sets everyone straight (not just a select few) what God has to say about anything is irrelevant--we need to use our senses and our intellect to discover truth.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Some may claim God is the only source of truth; however, the fact of the matter is that none of these people seem to be able to agree on what that truth is! Countless numbers of people claim to speak on God's behalf, but until God speaks to each and every one of us Himself, without fallible human middlemen, we can't be sure.

Amen and amen and amen, Mr. Spinkles. I actually agree with you 100% here.

I could tell you till I am blue in the face that what I believe is THE truth, but until you discover it for yourself, it won't matter a bit what I say. God will reveal Himself to each individual if they truly desire to find Him and to know the truth. I used to depend on what other people said about what is truth, and what isn't, but I have since come to realize that that isn't the best thing to do. We humans are indeed fallible, and because of this I would never be so silly as to claim that every single thing I believe is the truth--I make mistakes, and maybe some things I believe now that are truth, God may reveal to me later on that they aren't. I just have to be willing to listen to Him. I believe God Himself is the ultimate Truth, but many of the finer details about what I believe are subject to change.

[Mr Spinkles]

Hope-- I'm so glad we agree! Now I have a question for you: you are Christian, so I assume you believe Jesus was the son of God. Why? Did God tell you, or humans claiming to speak on His behalf?

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Hope-- I'm so glad we agree! Now I have a question for you: you are Christian, so I assume you believe Jesus was the son of God. Why? Did God tell you, or humans claiming to speak on His behalf?

Excellent question! You seem like a very smart, intellectual person, therefore I do not want to insult your intelligence by giving you some smug, pat answer. So, because I do not have much time right now, I will give you the best possible answer I can later, when I have more time. Your question deserves a good answer.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Hope-- I'm so glad we agree! Now I have a question for you: you are Christian, so I assume you believe Jesus was the son of God. Why? Did God tell you, or humans claiming to speak on His behalf?

All right, Mr. Spinkles, here is your answer! ( I do apologize for the delay. )

Why I believe Jesus is the Son of God---

First of all, I do not believe simply because 'God told me' or a human told me. I used to be very skeptical, and my initial belief in Jesus had nothing to do with 'proof' or 'evidence'--I simply took a chance, a 'leap of faith', and thankfully my faith was rewarded. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't have much grounds for continuing to believe.

Ironically, it wasn't until after I became a Christian that I began to think, hey, perhaps it'd be good to know more about this Jesus I believe in. So I began to read the Bible more thoroughly, read other various books, and simply do some research. Even now, I am researching! I want to know as much as I can.

But here are some basic things that are pretty convincing to me in favor of Jesus being God:

--First, let's establish that Jesus was historically a real person; to those who say He wasn't, then please explain to me the whole B.C./ A.D. thing referring to a person who never lived. That's pretty significant that time was split in two over a mere man--pretty strange if it was over an imaginary one. So to me, the fact even our history of time was split by Him, points to His divinity. There is other evidence too, that He was a real person.

--He fulfilled all the Old Testament prohecies concerning the Messiah. To me that is highly unlikely to be due to mere coincidence. He even pointed out Himself that He was fulfilling prophecy.

--I believe that His resurrection from the dead really happened, therefore proving his divinity. It just seems highly unlikely that such an incredible movement known as Christianity would have even started from crazy, supposedly delusional people, and then have spread so rapidly, even under tremendous persecution. The early Christians had amazing conviction, and to me the only logical conclusion is that their conviction was in something very, very real, and very, very true. Why let yourself be eaten by lions, and killed by gladiators, if you weren't 100% sure that what you believed was true? The apostle Paul even said that we are the most foolish of people, and our faith is in vain, if Jesus did not rise from the dead. And he's right. So, unless someone finds Jesus' bones, I have no reason to believe that He didn't rise from the dead.

--Jesus Himself claimed that He was the Son of God, the Christ, the I AM. I like what C. S. Lewis says--that either He was a liar, a lunatic, or telling the truth. If He was a liar or lunatic, then that would be totally incompatible with how He lived His life, and would pretty much nullify every amazingly wise thing that ever came out of His mouth. If one claims to be the Son of God, then one should be able to back up that claim with one's character, and what one does. And He did. It would be a pretty pompous, vain, and silly thing to claim one is God unless one really is!

--If you asked me to deny right now that Jesus is the Son of God, and doesn't exist, then I couldn't do it. It's not something I can really explain to you--you'll just have to take my word for it--but there is something inside me that simply knows He is real. Even when I have doubts about many, many other things, one thing I do not doubt is His reality. It's like you asking me to deny or question the existence of my mother. Granted, she is a physical being, that if you wanted proof, I could present to you. But, that kind of 'knowing' is the same kind of knowing I have in my heart about Jesus Christ. So, you can take that or leave that--whatever you want. But I can't deny what I know from personal experience to be true.

So.....these are the main reasons I believe Jesus is the Son of God. And I think He is there for the finding if anyone wants to 'find' Him. Thanks for asking the question, Mr. Spinkles. I hope my answers give you a clearer picture of what I believe and why.