Islam: male superiority and wife beating? (moral, beliefs, translation, mission)

[Jaymes]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Read this.

"God does not judge you according to your bodies and appearances, but He looks into your hearts and observes your deeds."
[The man asked] "Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your father."

* Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:2

I think that's pretty clear.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Faint

I'm glad you agree that things need to improve for women in the Islamic world (perhaps everywhere). But I wouldn't be so quick to discount radical thoughts and condemning words...they usually appeal to the youth of a nation, which would be the best target for a paradigm shift (since older generations tend to die off).

Gently align and redirerct their way of thinking? Sure, that works sometimes. Or... you can use strong words to rally anyone else who's listening and then all come barging in together. In my observations, raw emotion tends to persuade masses of people far better than reason or logic given in polite conversation. I like the "force the enemy into submission" approach, which seems to do well in the animal kingdom (of which we are still a part). But I'm not really trying to do either here.

so after you have used your strong words, and they have used their strong back, and everyone thinks everyone else is an arrogant fool, where do you go from there?

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Mike182

so after you have used your strong words, and they have used their strong back, and everyone thinks everyone else is an arrogant fool, where do you go from there?

Find a new target. Repeat the process. Listen, there are some traditions (meme-complexes) that are no good for the world. Once those are eliminated, the world be much better off. Trust me on this one--I'm a doctor.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Faint

Find a new target. Repeat the process.

im sorry, i must have been blind to not see, that splitting people up with blind heated arguments is actually the best way to reconcile the nations

Listen, there are some traditions (meme-complexes) that are no good for the world. Once those are eliminated, the world be much better off. Trust me on this one--I'm a doctor.

meme-complex
:A meme is a cultural element or belief, whose replication and persistance in human culture can be studied in an analogous way to the replication and persistence of genes in a population's gene pool. A meme-complex is a group of related memes which reinforce each other and cooperate for their common survival. “The existence of Hell” is a meme, but “Christianity” is a meme-complex.

(taken from http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Meme )


so you believe that doing away with organised religions like christianity and islam is the way in which the world can be made a better place - well, fair enough, your oppinion and your entitled to it, but i don't think im gonna subscribe to it

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Originally Posted by Faint

I was wondering about chapter 4 part 34 in the Quran which (one translation) says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means: For Allah is Most High, Great."

Am I reading this correctly? Is this a good translation? I ask because what I see here is:
1) Islam sets the men above women
2) Women are meant to be obedient to men (to obey)
3) Men are given divine permission to beat women

Any truth to that?

Well I hate to do anything so banal as to bring this thread back on topic, but I fear I must. Does this seem to be giving divine permission to men to beat their wives? Yes.

Does that make it right? Well I guess that depends upon whether you beleive in Allah. If you do, then you have to say it is a good thing, and accept your beatings. I personally don't care much for many of the verses of both the Old Testament Bible, and the Koran. The verse of the sword stands out as one I particularly dislike.

B.

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Mike182

so you believe that doing away with organised religions like christianity and islam is the way in which the world can be made a better place - well, fair enough, your oppinion and your entitled to it, but i don't think im gonna subscribe to it

Thats ok, she`s got company already.



As to the Op.
Yes, the verse orders the submission and physical abuse of women.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Mike182

yea, but 50 years ago, women were treated like @#/? in nottingham!

Would you provide a few examples of honor killings and Church support of wife beating in 1955 Nottingham?

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

Would you provide a few examples of honor killings and Church support of wife beating in 1955 Nottingham?

why does it need to be supported by the church? in 1955 the church did not run this country

anyway, http://www.uelsu.net/main/FUEL/diversity/ellis

She was the last woman to be hung in this country on 13th July 1955. She was hung for shooting her former lover, David Blakely

Ellis had several factors in her life that questioned her mental stability at the time of the murder. At the time of the murder Ellis was addicted to anti depressants and was drinking heavily which combined has nothing but a major effect on the individual's mental judgement. Ellis was also still dealing with the effects of being raped by her father as a child. This was not the first man to abuse Ellis during her life. She had countless boyfriends and husbands who witnessed her to domestic violence, Blakely was no exception. 10 days prior to her shooting him, a fight had occurred whereby Blakely had punched her in the stomach resulting in Ellis miscarrying their baby.

my point is that to change a culture, it takes time