Christians: To kill or not to kill?-_--__-_ (Jesus, exodus)

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Faint

Argh...I can't type today. Sorry, wasn't trying to lie. Yes, true, I quoted that wrong. I meant to say "stoning girls for NOT yelling while being raped", which in MY moral opinion qualifies as injustice and thus murder.

Well, so, you take God's law (thou shalt not murder) and then take another of god's laws (that big thing you quoted). If god made that law, he obviously thinks it is deserving of a penalty, and therefore is not muerder. You can't use two different standards for those laws.

Originally Posted by Faint

I'll repeat the quote: "do not resist an evil person". How do you interpret that? What is *not resisting* to you? Only resisting sometimes? Resisting when you feel like it? Jesus says do not resist evil, which undoubtly implies allowing evil to have it's way (or at least physically, judging by the context). He also models this kind of behavior personally by allowing himself to be tortured to death by people I would describe as (you guessed it) E-V-I-L.

You still haven't posted where that quote is, so how can I make even a half-way intelligent conclusion about it?!

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by Faint

Haha--oops, my bad--I totally thought you were some kind of old preacher citing all those passages.

Why do you associate anyone with biblical knowledge to be old?

Originally Posted by Faint

No, that's how I read "ratsach" is translated.

Ratsach means murder. So I ask again, is this how you define murder? It is a yes, no, or I don't know answer.

Originally Posted by Faint

Argh...I can't type today. Sorry, wasn't trying to lie. Yes, true, I quoted that wrong. I meant to say "stoning girls for NOT yelling while being raped", which in MY moral opinion qualifies as injustice and thus murder.

Okay, but as you're not G-d, I could really care less for what your opinion on if it's moral or not says.

Originally Posted by Faint

What if the girl is too scared to scream?

What if she is unconscious? [/quote]If she is unconscious, how could she scream? She couldn't, and as such, wouldn't be killed.

Originally Posted by Faint

In both cases she should be killed??

No.

Originally Posted by Faint

Is that what God wants?

Did you read what I posted?

Originally Posted by Faint

I'm glad you quoted these...they just back up my arguement that the courts' cause for killing back then were no more just than outright murder.

When the court was in doubt, (71 judges verse 1), they erred on the side of caution.

Originally Posted by Faint

In each of these scenarios, the woman has done NOTHING to warrant death (there is also something to be said about forcing a girl to marry the man who raped her, but that's for another thread).

Sure she has. Read it again, she's in a city, and if she's screaming in a city, people would hear her. So obviously because shes not being heard, it was consentual sex, hence the death. Remember how cities were set up back then, your neighbor could hear you having dinner. He would certainly hear you if you were screaming.

Originally Posted by Faint

Same difference. You were implying that what was permissable in the Torah is the model of how Christians should live their lives. I am pointing out that Jesus allegedly overturned many of those old rules. So your previous argument basically goes nowhere.

Nonsense, in fact, I purposely said ignoring Mr. J//Christianity...

And for the record, not one child has ever been killed for disrespct to his parents.

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by fromthe heart

This is a debate in many ways...to kill means to MURDER...not self defense...but if in persecution where God is concerned...we are not to strike back and if necessary we can be killed without raising a hand if in that situation...If defending property...you do not kill for posessions...for life preservation it can be different...it's all in each circumstances on what you should actually do...in the Old Testament it says an eye for an eye...but not so in the New Testament...we are to turn away from those who are intent on causing us harm and if they smack you on the right cheek you are to offer the left. You just have to know each circumstance and weigh the outcome of such actions.

Well said.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by Faint

and sometime after that to turn the other cheek if they are attacked.

just to add my two cents, when jesus said to turn the other cheek, it would have been an inflamatory jesture

when people were slapped as a sign of inferiority, it was with the back of the hand, so to turn the other cheek to be asking them to slap you again with the front of their hand, to symbolise equality - inflamatory to the social superiors of the day

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Mike182

just to add my two cents, when jesus said to turn the other cheek, it would have been an inflamatory jesture

when people were slapped as a sign of inferiority, it was with the back of the hand, so to turn the other cheek to be asking them to slap you again with the front of their hand, to symbolise equality - inflamatory to the social superiors of the day

Good point. I would frubal you, but I just did.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Well, so, you take God's law (thou shalt not murder) and then take another of god's laws (that big thing you quoted). If god made that law, he obviously thinks it is deserving of a penalty, and therefore is not muerder.

God obviously needs some basic junior college ethics lessons.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

You still haven't posted where that quote is, so how can I make even a half-way intelligent conclusion about it?!

Matt. 5:39. I'm always happy to help Christians learn more about their own faith.

Originally Posted by Deut 13:1

Ratsach means murder. So I ask again, is this how you define murder? It is a yes, no, or I don't know answer.

Okay, I'm not going to debate linguistics or Hebrew translation with you since neither of us are an expert on the language. To answer your question, no, I don't define murder this way.

Originally Posted by Deut 13:1

Okay, but as you're not G-d, I could really care less for what your opinion on if it's moral or not says.

How do you know I'm not God? I could be testing your faith right now. Or I, the LORD, may have learned some new things about right and wrong. For instance, I, the LORD, have finally realized that it is poor judgment to instruct my followers to MURDER young women for 1) being raped and not yelling out (what if they were near/in a city but gagged, or too frightened to scream out), 2) having sex with someone "betrothed" to another before their wedding should never have been considered a crime worthy of death (obviously), 3) a girl should NOT be MURDERED by any (past or present) court of law for having consensual sex. But you seem to think otherwise....

Originally Posted by Deut 13:1

Sure she has. Read it again, she's in a city, and if she's screaming in a city, people would hear her. So obviously because shes not being heard, it was consentual sex, hence the death.

In your opinion then, a girl should be put to death for having consentual sex? Sorry, but that's clearly twisted thinking. I, the LORD forbid such nonsense!

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Mike182

just to add my two cents, when jesus said to turn the other cheek, it would have been an inflamatory jesture

when people were slapped as a sign of inferiority, it was with the back of the hand, so to turn the other cheek to be asking them to slap you again with the front of their hand, to symbolise equality - inflamatory to the social superiors of the day

NOW we're getting somewhere! Good, so you're looking at this passage in more historical context. I want to know more about this--what is your source?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Faint

God obviously needs some basic junior college ethics lessons.
Matt. 5:39. I'm always happy to help Christians learn more about their own faith.

Why? Because you're that much better than he is? It's like, if you build a big tower out of blocks, you have the right to knock it down whenever you feel like it. You made the tower, and without you it would just be a bunch of blocks. Now that it's made, nobody has the right to tell you not to knock it down, because now it's more than that. The pot has no right to tell the potter what to do with his clay.

As to the quote, sorry, but I don't have entire Bible memorized as to what goes where. Memorization has nothing to do with my knowledge of my faith. I'm just not as cool as you are, obviously.