Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 02-13-2006, 11:53 PM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

Here's the statement I was defending:

Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.

Here's what I got from the three pages you provided:

-Born again Christians are just as likely to divorce as non-Christians, despite not coinhabiting.

I'm not arguing that atheists get divorced more often than Christians. I'm not arguing that Mormons are the best at marriage. I accept the facts that your statistics show, but they have nothing to do with this thread. They have only to do with religion.

My statement has nothing to do with religion. It has only to do with the strength of the bonds of intimacy that are developed when a couple abstains from sex until marriage. My stats and my original argument are based solely on human nature. My statistics show that pre-marital sex creates more failed marriages and failed cohabitations. Your statistics don't even address pre-marital sex, and they don't address failed cohabitations. They address the affects of cohabitation, which statistics you dismissed as not in keeping with the subject when I presented them (despite the fact that they had nothing to do with religion, and yours have only to do with religion). You also assume that because someone is a "born-again" Christian that means they abstain from sex before marriage, but that is very untrue. If you don't assume that then you shouldn't call your stats convincing of anything. Many Mormons don't abstain from sex before marriage, and many LDS folks sealed in the Temple had sex before they got married. NOne of this has anythign to do with my point.

Once again, I believe that no one has even addressed my above statement. If you believe I am in error then please explain why, but please don't send me on a goose chase. Tell me why I'm wrong and point me to the stats, don't just tell me to get the stats and the conclusion will be obvious. My argument, once again:

Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 02-14-2006, 12:58 AM
Buttons*'s Avatar
Buttons* Offline
Religion: Light*
Title:Glass half Panda'd
Shield of The Jester: Awarded for unyielding commitment to humour and the entertainment of others - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers and is well deserved. Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: 10,000 posts 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wellington
Gender: Female
Posts: 16,111
Frubals: 1300
Buttons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popular
Buttons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popularButtons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popularButtons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popularButtons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popularButtons* names frubals individually and then lists them as 'friends' on social networking sites to appear more popular
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
Relationships are stronger and more rewarding when people are married, and they wait till marriage to have sex.
from your point of view, yes.
__________________
"Is this one of the things that are superfluous?"

Meditations
Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 02-14-2006, 07:26 AM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

And all the statistics that man has ever compiled on the subject corroborate my statement. This is exactly what I said earlier. I prove my claim and you guys go, "Nu-uh."
Reply With Quote
  #404  
Old 02-14-2006, 09:54 AM
linwood's Avatar
linwood Offline
Religion: None
Title:Awesome Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,048
Frubals: 916
linwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of society
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
And all the statistics that man has ever compiled on the subject corroborate my statement. This is exactly what I said earlier. I prove my claim and you guys go, "Nu-uh."
What stats are these?
Maybe I missed them, this thread seems to be moving rather quickly.

If you`ve posted them point them out to me.

Sexuality and marriage are a study of mine for reasons beyond what we`re discussing here and I`ve never seen stats that would corroborate what your stating.
__________________
If my calculations are correct ..
SLINKY + ESCALATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 02-14-2006, 02:34 PM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

This is one study I was interested in. It mentions cohabitation, but the main argument here is pre-marital sex. It's hard to find studies about pre-maritatal sex that don't mention cohabitation.

"Those who are sexually active before marriage are much more likely to divorce.
A study of 2,746 women in the National Survey of Family Growth performed by Dr. Kahn of the University of Maryland and Dr. London of the National Center for Health Statistics found that nonvirgin brides increase their odds of divorce by about 60%. Some would argue that cohabitation does not automatically mean that sex is taking place. However, cohabitation and sexual relations are related or that there is a strong correlation between them. Sex usually does accompany cohabitation (de Neui n.d.); Webster's Dictionary, in fact, defines cohabitation as "living together as or as if husband and wife." If cohabitants live together like "husband and wife," having sex is a very reasonable expectation. Therefore, the assumption is made throughout this writing (granting some occasional exceptions) that cohabitants do have sexual relations.
Those who have had premarital sex are more likely to have extramarital affairs as well.
Premarital sexual attitudes and behavior do not change after one marries; if a woman lives with a man before marriage, she is more likely to cheat on him after marriage. Research indicates that if one is willing to experience sex before marriage, a higher level of probability exists that one will do the same afterwards. This is especially true for women; those who engaged in sex before marriage are more than twice as likely to have extramarital affairs as those who did not have premarital sex. When it comes to staying faithful, married partners have higher rates of loyalty every time. One study, done over a 5-year period, reported in Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles indicates 90% of married women were monogamous, compared to 60% of cohabiting women. Statistics were even more dramatic with male faithfulness: 90% of married men remained true to their brides, while only 43% of cohabiting men stayed true to their partner (Ciavola 1997). In another study published in the Journal of Marriage and the Family researchers analyzed the relationships of 1,235 women, ages 20 to 37, and found that women that had cohabited before marriage were 3.3 times more likely to have a secondary sex partner after marriage (Forste and Tanfer 1996:33-47). It was also found that married women were "5 times less likely to have a secondary sex partner than cohabiting women" and that "cohabiting relationships appeared to be more similar to dating relationships than to marriage.

Those having premarital sex may be fooled into marrying a person who is not right for them.
Sex can emotionally blind. Real love can stand the test of time without the support of physical intimacy. "If you establish a mutually satisfying sexual relationship, you lose objectivity and actually cheat on the test of time. The only way to rationally decide whether your love is for keeps is to remove any preoccupation with eros, sexual love. Otherwise you may marry a mirage, not a person you really know."
Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 02-14-2006, 02:37 PM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

If you'd like to learn more about cohabitation you can read the entirety of this study at:

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.html
Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 02-14-2006, 03:25 PM
Quiddity's Avatar
Quiddity Offline
Religion: Catholic
Title:UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Shield of Peace: Awarded for exceptional effort in upholding and promoting the peace - Issue reason:  Shield of The Ambassador: Awarded for being a true herald of a belief system - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by the award committee and is well deserved. Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: 10000 posts 
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: California, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 19,478
Frubals: 1249
Quiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collection
Quiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collectionQuiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collectionQuiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collectionQuiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collectionQuiddity bores visitors with stories and photographs of this vast frubal collection
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
If you'd like to learn more about cohabitation you can read the entirety of this study at:

http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.html
Excellent source...
__________________
"A man is truly ethical only when he obeys the compulsion to help all life which he is able to assist, and shrinks from injuring anything that lives." Albert Schweitzer
Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 02-15-2006, 01:11 PM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

I'm glad you like it. I am now awating the response of my detractors.
Reply With Quote
  #409  
Old 02-15-2006, 01:38 PM
linwood's Avatar
linwood Offline
Religion: None
Title:Awesome Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,048
Frubals: 916
linwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of societylinwood overcame a strong case of frubalphobia and is now almost a productive member of society
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan
I'm glad you like it. I am now awating the response of my detractors.
Thank you for the sources.

They do support the statement that pre-marital sex leads to higher divorce rates.
I concede that point.

However more recent studies that have been analized for other possible reasons break down the contributing factors much farther than simple cohabitation.

CDC Cohabitation Divorce/Marriage study (PDF file)

An abstract of the CDC report..

- Many of the media reports about the study exaggerate the link between cohabitation and divorce. The study found a small difference (9%) in the rate of divorce in the first ten years for spouses who cohabited before marriage compared to those who didn't. However, many other studies find that most or all of this link is explained by the differences between the kinds of people who cohabit and those who don't. Since most couples who marry today are already living together, those who don't are a more religious, conservative group with different divorce patterns. As sociologist Judith Seltzer wrote in a 2000 article in the Journal of Marriage and the Family, "Claims that individuals who cohabit before marriage hurt their chances of a good marriage pay too little attention to this evidence."

Continued at link

Another study recently completed by Sociologist Jay Teachman at the University of Washington and published in The Journal of Marriage and Family under the title.. "Premarital Sex, Premarital Cohabitation, and the Risk
of Subsequent Marital Dissolution Among”
(PDF File)shows that those women who cohabitate with their future husband are no more or less likely to divorce than those who wait for marriage.

This study seems to me to have the same flaws of earlier studies though which fail to take account of any other factors besides cohabitation itself.
I take it with a grain of salt.

In essence it is not the cohabitation that has bearing on the divorce rate but the age, income, and moral beliefs of those who get married in the first place.
In fact the studies that show astronomical divorce rates for those who marry young (under 25) is strong evidence for cohabitation and waiting for marriage.
__________________
If my calculations are correct ..
SLINKY + ESCALATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
Reply With Quote
  #410  
Old 02-15-2006, 02:16 PM
dan Offline
Religion: LDS Christian
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,464
Frubals: 110
dan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubalsdan will work for frubals
Default

I appreciate your honesty and maturity. I apologize for getting a little too amped earlier.

I agree with the assertions made from your information, and I would contend that the predominant attitude that sex is for recreation is largely responsible for a lot of these trends. I feel that a more reverent perspective would reduce a lot of young marriages and a lot of divorces. There are many who feel that abstinance is an impossible thing to expect from our youth, but I've seen it work and I believe it really is the best way.

There are many different ethical frameworks from which to draw conclusions about the role of sex in our lives, but I wanted to show here that a utilitarian, consequestialist, objectivist, virtue or, of course, divine command perspective on morality will favor waiting over pre-marital sex. I've been interested in the moral code that others subscribe to that they believe justifies pre-marital sex, but the only comprehensive code I've gotten is "If it harms someone it's bad." Which is fallacious as well as grossly inadequate. I can understand how moral relativism can justify it, but I feel moral relativism is a joke. I believe in absolute truth, and I believe morality should be universal.

Deontological ethics could justify it if you could produce evidence that pre-marital sex is a right or duty. I try to prove myself wrong whenever I reach a conclusion, but that one would take way too long.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:20 AM.


Copyright © 2014 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.