Is the Crucifix blasphemous? (Jesus, Earth, exodus, contradiction, doctrine)

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

Wouldn't changing the sabbath to Sunday be considered sin?

Complicated subject, but no. In the Bible one can see a progression of different ages in which God deals slightly differently with mankind in some ways. We can group them as: the ages of: Innocence, Human Government, Promise, Law, Church, Kingdom, Eternity. I will not go into detail on all of them, but with each new age, God had signs, wonders, or miracles, something supernatural occur to show this is a new age. When Christ rose on Sunday, freeing us from sin and death, and the burdensome yoke of the law, it was one of those radical changes, from the age of the Law, to the age of Grace, or the Church Age. Many Jewish Christians were confused and tried to make the Gentile believers go back under old laws meant for Israel to separate them as God's chosen people through whom the Messiah, or Saviour, Jesus would come. It is thoroughly explained in the NT, stronger christians saw that Christ paid for our sins, that he ushered in a higher law of love, and although certain of the laws were repeated in the NT for gentiles too, some things changed. God can do that. This will get too long if I try to explain more, peace.

[Seyorni]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Complicated subject, but no. In the Bible one can see a progression of different ages in which God deals slightly differently with mankind in some ways. We can group them as: the ages of: Innocence, Human Government, Promise, Law, Church, Kingdom, Eternity. I will not go into detail on all of them, but with each new age, God had signs, wonders, or miracles, something supernatural occur to show this is a new age. When Christ rose on Sunday, freeing us from sin and death, and the burdensome yoke of the law, it was one of those radical changes, from the age of the Law, to the age of Grace, or the Church Age. Many Jewish Christians were confused and tried to make the Gentile believers go back under old laws meant for Israel to separate them as God's chosen people through whom the Messiah, or Saviour, Jesus would come. It is thoroughly explained in the NT, stronger christians saw that Christ paid for our sins, that he ushered in a higher law of love, and although certain of the laws were repeated in the NT for gentiles too, some things changed. God can do that. This will get too long if I try to explain more, peace.

This is a very Baha'i viewpoint, joeboonda. Have you read any of their writings?

[almifkhar]

victor
never said i was an expert, but i did grow up in the chruch and know enough to know that reciting a hail mary is not directed to god. blasphemous

here lets do something i really don't like to do, i will quote it from the holy bible (idol worship)
exodus 20
"you shall not have no other gods before me."
"you shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. you shall not bow down to them or worship them; for i, the lord your god, am a jealous god, punishing the children for the sin of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to the thousands who love me and keep my comandments."
leviticus19
"do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. i am the lord your god."
deuteronomy 4:15
"you saw no form of any kind the day the lord spoke to you at horeb out of the fire. therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, and image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the water below. and when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars- all the heavenly array-do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the lord your god has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."

like i said before the laws of moses make this issue very clear.

what don't you have any idea of? the atrocities of the church are well documented and are common knowledge. pope john paul 2 himself said these things did infact happen. why not, i guess i will explain it to you anyways

when the spaniards came to the americas (roman cathloics by the way), they checked out what the local populations were doing and what they had. when they discovered they had gold and knowledge in abundance, they then when on a murdous spree and destroyed their holy temples, shrines, and books. their justification for this, because they were heathen pagans who did not have jesus in their hearts. yet all the while these same spaniards were doing the excat same thing when they prayed. saying hail mary's, praying before the crucifix, making prayers to the saints and infront of the idols they made of these saints, jesus (god so they say), and mary. the difference between the native population and the spaniards spirituality was this
1. different name for god, gods
2. practice and ritual
what was the same
1. idols
2. prayer infront and to these idols
3. prayers directed to other gods, angels, saints and not directed directly to the supreme great spirit, i.e. god himself.

by the way worship and prayer go hand in hand.

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

This is a very Baha'i viewpoint, joeboonda. Have you read any of their writings?

No I haven't read much Baha'i writings, just their posts. I like some of their teaching, however, I believe the progressive revelation of God does culminate in Jesus Christ and the good news that salvation is free, thus freeing us from worrying whether we have done enough or are good enough. I disagree with them that there are many messiahs or ways to God. Although I will say that one will not be held accountable for that which he has not heard. If one never hears the gospel of Jesus, one will not be held accountable for rejecting it. I trust God will deal rightly and fairly with all men, according to the light they have been given and how they respond to it.

[michel]

Originally Posted by spacemonkey

One of the earliest contradictions I noticed growing up as a Catholic child was that of the Crucifix. One of the Ten Commandments, they would teach me in Sunday School , forbid the worshipping of "graven images". Then you would go into the main hall and behind the alter, loe and behold, would be a 9 foot tall statue of Jesus on the Cross, not to mention statues of Mary or other Saints. So I have to ask, wouldn't the Crucifix (not just a cross, but Jesus on the cross) and the saintly statues be considered "graven images"?

You said it yourself;

One of the Ten Commandments, they would teach me in Sunday School , forbid the worshipping of "graven images

Graven images are not to be worshiped. That is what is a sin. Having a graven image to remind us occasionly is not wrong, if seeing it makes us pray to God.

[Ernestine]

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by Ernestine

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

My Bible says Jesus was crucified on a cross, the word cross is used 28 times in the new testament. Jesus showed Thomas the print of the nails, plural in his hand, he died on a Roman cross, hence the word crucified. The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

[JerryL]

The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

The Egyptian Ankh:

The Celtic cross was a mix of the Christian cross and Celtic design sensabilities:


The symbol of Baal:

[joeboonda]

Yeah, the Ankh, that was it! Thanks.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Ernestine

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

Originally Posted by joeboonda

My Bible says Jesus was crucified on a cross, the word cross is used 28 times in the new testament. Jesus showed Thomas the print of the nails, plural in his hand, he died on a Roman cross, hence the word crucified. The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

As for me, I don't really think it makes that big of a difference whether he died on a cross or a pole. Romans were known for crucifying people, so a cross isn't that farfetched. Yet if it were a pole, it wouldn't change anything. Just so long as you aren't worshipping either, I think you're fine.