Dying before asking for forgiveness (Jesus, Messiah, Torah, salvation)

[michel]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

The Bible makes it very clear that if you hear the good news that Jesus paid for all your sins and offers salvation as a totally free gift, and you reject that, you will at death, go straight to Hell. That is the simple truth any other teaching is false and will lead many to Hell, thinking, ah I will do what I want now, and get it right in the next life. When Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke, he said a CERTAIN man, which denotes a real man, he would not name him, but he tells it true, he said, the rich man also died, and was buried, AND IN HELL, HE LIFT UP HIS EYES, BEING IN TORMENTS...from Luke 16:22,23. Then he asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue being in torments in the flame...Jesus warned more of Hell than he talked about Heaven. In Hebrews it says it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgement. Jesus says there will be a judgement, where the sheep and the goats will be separated, that is the wicked and the righteous. Make no mistake, if you live wickedly on this earth, and have never accepted the free gift of Christs' righteousness that he freely imputes to your account, you will go to Hell. Do not be fooled. You say you never felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but that is not so, or you would not spend so much time on this forum fighting against it. Anyway, I do not want to proselytize here, I just telling you the Baptists are right, lol. I wish you well in your journey, I feel Jesus told us the truth very clearly if we would read the Bible. Peace.

Joeboonda,

You do Christians no favours whatsoever by your method of proselytizing (for that is what it is), and as far as I am concerned, you portray the God of the old testament. Perhaps I should thank you for the fact that I have chaged my religion to read "A follower of Christ" instead of "Christian".

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by michel

Joeboonda,

You do Christians no favours whatsoever by your method of proselytizing (for that is what it is), and as far as I am concerned, you portray the God of the old testament. Perhaps I should thank you for the fact that I have chaged my religion to read "A follower of Christ" instead of "Christian".

Hi, I was still editing that post as you replied, I added more to it. I do NOT portray the God of the old testament. I wrote what CHRIST taught, if you are a follower of Christ you must deal with his warnings on Hell. Now, I believe salvation is a totally FREE gift, we simply believe the good news of Christs' death to pay for all our sins, that is we trust that he is who he said, and on the cross he paid for all our sins. I add nothing more to this, the moment we believe we have passed from death to life, and will not ever go back into condemnation. I believe in grace, undeserved, unmerited favor, to us sinners, that we have such a loving God that he would pay for all our sins. That is NOT old testament. Sorry if I came across that way to you, I believe God is longsuffering, his love is neverending, his mercy is great, his love unsurpassed, and his thoughts to us are good and not evil, that he cares about every detail of our lives, and loves us sooooo much. Is that old testament? Not a chance.

[Fatmop]

I gave up on the idea of getting into heaven several years before I came to the conclusion that there was no more reason to beleive in Christianity than there was for believing in Zoroastrianism, Islam, Buddhism, Zeus, Athena, etc. etc. etc.

I want to read more about Zoroastrianism, actually.. Ahriman was the evil spirit, if I'm not mistaken, and there was some representation of an angelic or good spirit for which I've forgotten the name...

When I said God's word, I was referring to the BIble, which I believe is, that is all, if you don't belive it is, thats fine. That is just what I go by, sorry if I mislead you into thinking God drops by in my living room, although I do pray to him there sometimes. Peace.

That was my point. Perhaps you should reassess your belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God, especially in lieu of the fact that he does NOT seem to want to take the time to chat with you in your living room.

[Fatmop]

we simply believe the good news of Christs' death to pay for all our sins

It seems like an oxymoron to say "The good news of ____'s death." It also seems like it's giving you a free pass into heaven just by believing - doesn't matter what sort of sins you commit, Christ already died, so hey!

The moment we believe we have passed from death to life, and will not ever go back into condemnation.

So an atheist who used to believe will never be condemned to hell? Haha! Good to know!

[michel]

Originally Posted by Jensa

I've asked people why suicide sends you straight to hell, and I've been told it's because you can't ask forgiveness after you do it.

Two questions: Why can't you ask for forgiveness beforehand, and what happens if someone who leads an otherwise virtuous life sins and immediately after gets killed in a car crash? Same result as suicide?

As usual, I would personally concentrate on the Love of God, although I tend to agree with the idea that as we are part of his wonderful creation, he would not be overly impressed if we try to 'damage' ourselves. I have often thought about this in connection with self harming.

As a rule of thumb, I tend to try to 'visualize' God's reaction to any sinner as the way a father would to his son................

[Dark_Waltz]

Originally Posted by Jensa

I've asked people why suicide sends you straight to hell, and I've been told it's because you can't ask forgiveness after you do it.

God "You are going to hell for eternity because you had a hard life, and could no longer go on living, You thing you had peace in death?! Hah! and therefore your soul is officially condemned
ps... I love you all like children"

Is it just me that sees this flaw in this sort of thinking?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by MdmSzdWhtGuy

I wish I believed. I wish I could just buy into what the preacher and bible say, and be done with it. But I cannot. I can mouth the words, and do the physical acts, but I cannot do so and be honest despite a sincere desire to be able to do so. What about me? My LDS friends say that I will be shown the light after I die and will get a second chance, but then my Babtist friends are already holding hot dogs over me. Who is to say who is correct?

You know, I sometimes think that people have the wrong idea about what we Latter-day Saints believe. I often hear the words "second chance" used to describe our doctrine, which is not an entirely accurate way of putting it. (I'm not accusing you of intentionally distorting our beliefs, WhtGuy, so please don't think I am.)

I think that our belief in the continuing existance of the Spirit World described in the New Testament is in no way inconsistent with the scriptures. But the main purpose for it is to offer those who never had an opportunity to hear Christ's gospel here on earth a "first chance" to accept it. It's pure nonsense for someone to say, on one hand, that a person must believe in Christ in order to be saved, and then turn around in the next breath and say that God will not hold people responsible for something they didn't know. The two statements are contradictory, and there's no way around it.

When Jesus told Peter that the "gates of hell" would not prevail against His Church, this is what I was talking about. Peter would have fully understood what He was saying, since, to him, the "gates of hell" would not have had the sinister implications the phrase seems to today. The gates of hell were merely representative of the entrance to the underworld, the place of departed spirits -- the Spirit World. Since the gates of hell have not prevailed, those who died in ignorance will be given the knowledge they lacked during mortality.

Now I've heard the argument that one of the reasons the LDS position is supposedly flawed is that there would be no point in accepting the gospel here and now if one could simply plan on doing it while in the Spirit World. If this is what your LDS friends have led you to believe, they are only partially correct in their thinking. This life is a probationary period for all of us and we will be held accountable for the decisions we make during our lifetimes. While it is true that cultural and environmental issues will prevent some people from accepting the gospel during this life, and that such barriers to their understanding will be removed in the Spirit World, we need to realize that God knows each of our hearts. When we willfully reject spiritual truths God has given us the opportunity to understand and accept during our lifetimes, we can hardly expect Him to simply turn a blind eye to our stubbornness.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Dark_Waltz

God "You are going to hell for eternity because you had a hard life, and could no longer go on living, You thing you had peace in death?! Hah! and therefore your soul is officially condemned
ps... I love you all like children"

Is it just me that sees this flaw in this sort of thinking?

Of course there's a flaw.......beware anyone who talks of fire and Brimstone......besides, you quote yourself as being Pagan (so you would be alright anyway)

[Fluffy]

Why can't you ask for forgiveness beforehand

I think that this misses the point of asking for forgiveness, Jensa. How can you ask to be forgiven for something when you have every intention of carrying that something out in the next few seconds? You can't be truly sorry, or at least not sorry enough if you see what I mean.

what happens if someone who leads an otherwise virtuous life sins and immediately after gets killed in a car crash? Same result as suicide?

It would be more logical to go with a networth kind of idea. Perhaps if God can see predict future possibilities, he can see whether you would have been sorry or not? Or maybe you get a chance after you die. There is just too much speculation involved when you get past the cut off point of death.