Beauty and Purpose (ritual, paradise, tradition, after life, spiritual)

[Mr Spinkles]

Can something be appreciated for its own sake, even if it has no "purpose"?

What is the "purpose" of a rose, or a work of art?

Does beauty require a purpose?

Can "ugly" things, like a dark painting or a sad movie or salmon dying as they swim upstream, be beautiful in their own way?

I just have a hard time believing that, unless life "means" something, or is used to achieve some ends (e.g. to go to heaven and live in Paradise, or to achieve Nirvanna, etc.), that therefore it has no beauty or worth. That would seem to imply that life has no intrinsic value, that reading a book or laughing with friends or experiencing pain or watching a child grow up isn't worth anything apart from the means to some supernatural end.

I think anyone who believes that is just taking all those things for granted.

[Nick Soapdish]

If there is no purpose other than the oscillation and deteriation of our mechanical Universe (), then the beauty we see in children, books and flowers becomes a curious chemical reaction we have in our heads when we are confronted with these things.

I think it is important to believe beauty is something that has intrinsic value or meaning beyond a description of something that triggers these chemicals in our heads. But I fail to see how this is possible without a purpose greater than our own.

I think you are on to something in suggesting that something that is beautiful is something that is in alignment with a purpose. However, if that purpose is nothing more than our own, then the beauty we see in things has no value beyond our own interests.

[Scuba Pete]

I agree Spinks... probably for different reasons, but I agree! Beauty exists for it's own sake, and all things are worth something, even if we don't understand it. The exception being the tick that gave me Lyme's disease last year!

[Mr Spinkles]

I think it is important to believe beauty is something that has intrinsic value or meaning beyond a description of something that triggers these chemicals in our heads. But I fail to see how this is possible without a purpose greater than our own.

Well if something has "intrinsic value", then by definition is it valuable regardless of any external factors, including a "greater purpose other than our own".

Are you saying you cannot appreciate the beauty of something unless it has some "greater purpose"?

Does this mean you cannot appreciate the beauty of the spiritual things you believe in, like god and heaven, since they serve no "greater purpose" other than themselves?

I think I would find roses beautiful whether they had a "reason" or not.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Can something be appreciated for its own sake, even if it has no "purpose"?

What is the "purpose" of a rose, or a work of art?

Does beauty require a purpose?

If you appreciate the beauty of a rose or a work of art then it has a purpose.

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Can "ugly" things, like a dark painting or a sad movie or salmon dying as they swim upstream, be beautiful in their own way?

I suggest you read the excellent writings by Edmund Burke where he distinguishes between the beautiful and the sublime.

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

I just have a hard time believing that, unless life "means" something, or is used to achieve some ends (e.g. to go to heaven and live in Paradise, or to achieve Nirvanna, etc.), that therefore it has no beauty or worth. That would seem to imply that life has no intrinsic value, that reading a book or laughing with friends or experiencing pain or watching a child grow up isn't worth anything apart from the means to some supernatural end.

I think anyone who believes that is just taking all those things for granted.

Religion is all about finding beauty, meaning, and purpose in life. But it certainly does not have to be in the after life. If you value reading a book, laughing with friends, etc, then that is your meaning in life. You may or may not also have higher meanings, and I would hope you do. (Truth and justice, for example.) But I would also hope that even those who look forward to heaven enjoy a good book or a good laugh while they are here in this life. UU's greatest theologian of the 20th century wrote about "taking time seriously." What happens in this life and this world is important. God acts in this life and this world. It would be very foolish to ignore this life and this world while waiting for the next one.

Oh, and in the Mahayana buddhist tradition, samsara IS nirvana.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by lilithu

If you appreciate the beauty of a rose or a work of art then it has a purpose.

I meant "purpose" for something other than just being appreciated. In other words, to appreciate something for its own sake, rather than for its usefulness or function. But I agree with what you're saying. If one appreciates the beauty of life, then it has a purpose.

Originally Posted by lilithu

Religion is all about finding beauty, meaning, and purpose in life. But it certainly does not have to be in the after life. If you value reading a book, laughing with friends, etc, then that is your meaning in life. You may or may not also have higher meanings, and I would hope you do. (Truth and justice, for example.)

I agree with the idea behind what you're saying, but I would nitpick the words "meaning" and "purpose". I can appreciate something as beautiful even if it's completely meaningless and purposeless, even if there is absolutely no reason for it to exist.

[cardero]

Beauty doesn't know it's beautiful.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

.

Can something be appreciated for its own sake, even if it has no "purpose"?

Logically yes, I see no reason why not.
rose' could be said to be an intrinsic part of nature; to some extent, man has developed the rose, by grafting. As in that and the artist, the purpose is to fulfill the artist's need to express himself, and to have the gratification of being complimented on his art.

Does beauty require a purpose?

Difficult one, because there are going to be so many variables; beauty in a human being has the purpose of attracting

What is the "purpose" of a rose, or a work of art?

The 'purpose of the companions, partners, or mates.

Can "ugly" things, like a dark painting or a sad movie or salmon dying as they swim upstream, be beautiful in their own way?

Yes, definitely; (I'm not so sure about the poor salmon, except that he will be part of the 'biological recycling' process), but there is beauty in ugliness; ugly things make us feel emotions - subjective to each person, but all the same, they evoke emotion, and thought.

I just have a hard time believing that, unless life "means" something, or is used to achieve some ends (e.g. to go to heaven and live in Paradise, or to achieve Nirvanna, etc.), that therefore it has no beauty or worth. That would seem to imply that life has no intrinsic value, that reading a book or laughing with friends or experiencing pain or watching a child grow up isn't worth anything apart from the means to some supernatural end.

I think anyone who believes that is just taking all those things for granted

I can agree with you from your point of view - everything in life can have an intrinsic value, without it having anything to do with some supernatural end.

But as a Christian, for me, everything goes much further............perhaps I could say 'the intensity of emotion is greater, because I am a Christian'

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Well if something has "intrinsic value", then by definition is it valuable regardless of any external factors, including a "greater purpose other than our own".

True, that was poor wording on my part.

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Are you saying you cannot appreciate the beauty of something unless it has some "greater purpose"?

No, I am saying that something is beautiful because of the greater purpose (at least beauty in the way you seem to be using it). I believe goodness, love and beauty have a subtle relationship that all tie back to the character of God and His imprint on the world.

If I understand you, you are applying a value to beauty that transcends human interests. What is this based on?

[Scuba Pete]

Excellent post atofel... beauty can be derived from the greater purpose!