The Question of Faith (reject, Earth, beliefs, minority, theist)

[(Q)]

we cannot prove that God is an invention of man.

Fair enough. But that is no reason to think a god exists nor is it a reason to suspect god was not an invention of man.

I believe that if any of us had lived among the Israelites a few thousand years ago and seen all the miraculous things they did, we would be going, Whoa, whether I want to believe there is a God or not, there is no other explanation for what I am seeing!

First of all, you are making the assumption that men today are as ignorant as those Israelites were a few thousand years ago. Those people knew absolutely nothing about the world around them. And secondly, you are making the assumption that those so-called 'miraculous' events were accurately accounted and were not exaggerated due to their ignorance. Thirdly, you are making the assumption those events actually took place.

Perhaps someone who might time-travel back to that era could easily explain any of those events, that is, if they actually occurred.

If we are determined not to believe, then it won't matter how many proofs He offers us.

It's not a matter of being 'determined not to believe,' it is a matter of wanting to believe.

I have deep conviction in understanding how things work in the universe. If there were evidence of a god, I would one of the first to stand up and argue for his existence.

We would just find a way to explain away every sign or proof He gives us.

Sorry, but a scientist would admit to a gods existence if the evidence indicated such.

From my own personal experience, I can say that I believe He is real, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And it is statements like that which make my blood boil when those who make them outrightly bash science in the same breath. For some reason, theists make the assumption that since science has not discovered everything, then it must be flawed.

Science NEVER states that something is 'beyond a shadow of a doubt,' for it must explore all possibilites. It is that kind of statement and others like it that shows how theists are not interested in any other possibilities other than what encapsulates their worldviews.

He did not 'appear' to me in any vision, or stand in front of me in human form so that I could say, 'Aha, now I can prove scientifically that God is a real, living being!' But I have had too many experiences that cannot be explained ( and heard of others through other people I trust ), except by the existence of a loving, thinking, living supreme Being bigger and more awesome than anything I am capable of imagining.

I continually hear and read those kind of stories. It is remarkable to say the least that people can come to that kind of conclusion without excluding other possibilites. In other words, if they don't understand it, it must be a god.

Having faith simply requires being willing to let go of our presuppositions of what God should be like, and being willing to say, you know what, perhaps I shouldn't rely totally on everything that I can see, hear, taste, smell, etc., to define 'reality' to me

But that is exactly how one defines reality. There is nothing more to rely upon. So what one has to let go of is their suspension of disbelief. Essentially, anything one can conjure from their imaginations can be considered valid.

maybe there is another whole realm, or dimension, out there, that is just as real as this one, maybe more real, only I have been too blind to see it before, because I was looking for it in all the wrong places.

That may make for good science-fiction but there is nothing to suggest other realms exist, nor is there any reason to believe such things exist aside from what we conjure from our imaginations.

It is the ability to discern fantasy from reality that sets one apart from the common herd.

[HelpMe]

Fair enough. But that is no reason to think a god exists nor is it a reason to suspect god was not an invention of man.

and visa versa

Sorry, but a scientist would admit to a gods existence if the evidence indicated such.

there are scientists that believe in the bible, creation, and i'm sure other relgions as well.the 'bible' is based on faith, so there should be no hardcore proof on the way.i'm not waiting.

That may make for good science-fiction but there is nothing to suggest other realms exist

nor is there reason to suggest it does not exist.

In other words, if they don't understand it, it must be a god.

well, i don't believe because of anything that has happened to me.

Thirdly, you are making the assumption those events actually took place.

perhaps it could respectfully be called faith or belief instead...


--S

[(Q)]

and visa versa

A well thought out response if I ever heard one. Thank you for the kindergarten answer.

there are scientists that believe in the bible, creation, and i'm sure other relgions as well.

So what? Their beliefs are unfounded and most likely are contradicted by their research.

the 'bible' is based on faith, so there should be no hardcore proof on the way.i'm not waiting.

So, you believe everything you read? Do you also believe Aesop and Grimms?

nor is there reason to suggest it does not exist.

Ah, so you DO believe everything you read. Someone can conjure something up from their imaginations unfounded in reality and you're ready to believe it.

And actually, there are many reasons that such realms do not exist, however I doubt you're interested in finding out.

perhaps it could respectfully be called faith or belief instead...

Or, more precisely, mere fabrications.

[HelpMe]

Originally Posted by (Q)

A well thought out response if I ever heard one. Thank you for the kindergarten answer.

thanks for the input, you neither contributed to the discussion nor agreed with any point at all. a mere attack on me, congrats you'll do really well in the upcoming word wrestling championship.Allow me to witness, yeshua has paid for your sins.

Originally Posted by (Q)

Their beliefs are unfounded and most likely are contradicted by their research.

if...YOU...say so?you know so much about these people!and since you've never experienced anything spiritual, it simple can't be.cool

Originally Posted by (Q)

So, you believe everything you read? Do you also believe Aesop and Grimms?

do i believe you?no?oh?well...

Originally Posted by (Q)

Ah, so you DO believe everything you read. Someone can conjure something up from their imaginations unfounded in reality and you're ready to believe it.

you mistakingly relate reality to tangibility, not a mistake that actually concerns me or threatens me, i just thought you should be aware.

the world is flat.ice in space came from...... uh ...... *** is gravity?electricity was not real until proven so, therefor before the key on the kite, it was non-existant!right?yeah?no?oh.

Originally Posted by (Q)

And actually, there are many reasons that such realms do not exist, however I doubt you're interested in finding out.

i'm very interested as to the many reasons, or should i say theories?please share?

Originally Posted by (Q)

Or, more precisely, mere fabrications.

if..YOU..say so?


--S

[Rex]

Q,

Realize that Atheism is a "belief" "faith" in no God. You cannot prove your side as the theist cannot prove their side.

Why make direct statements, that are agressively trying to show you are right? When I can take every argument lined up here and point right back at you?

The debate goes nowhere when that happens.

[Hope]

Q,

Who says the Israelites were ignorant? That is an assumption you are making. You sounded kind of vicious in your reaction to many of my statements, and I wonder why. I am simply stating my own convictions concerning why I have faith. If you want to believe there is no God, that's entirely your choice. And Rex is right in that your own statements can be used against you. Also, I am sorry I am supposedly one of those people who make your blood boil--I think you are mistaken about me, for I do not bash science at all--God gave us brains, we are meant to use them, and science has great merit and use, and because of it we know much about our world and our universe. And I know there are many scientists, like HelpMe said, who are Christians, and their religious beliefs do not conflict with their scientific knowledge. And in that statement I made that ticked you off, I think you may not have noticed that some of the key words were 'my personal experience' and 'I believe.' I did not simply say 'God is real, beyond a shadow of a doubt.' That indeed would be a tough statement, which I would have to back up with tons of evidence.

[Mr Spinkles]

Gerani--

for skeptics, no proof is enough.

This is an unfair characterization. It would be more accurate to say "for skeptics, some evidence would be nice".

Folks, we are the only animals on this planet with an imagination--the ability to think things about the world, or believe there are things in the world, which simply do not exist. That is why in any respectable search for truth, it is VITAL that we use evidence, not 'faith'. Faith is simply an invention by our collective confirmation bias to save our unfounded, imagined notions of the world.

HelpMe-- Yes, things like electricity, black holes and so forth existed before they were discovered. However, notice there weren't thousands of beleivers going around proclaiming the existence of black holes or quantum particles BEFORE there was evidence to support these things? You can't rationally say something exists when there is no evidence for its existence...people who do arrogantly assume that they have some kind of special knowledge of things to come.

In lieu of evidence, the best one can rationally say is "it's possible, but there is no evidence for it, so it is unlikely". Anyone who truly wants to be objective will believe after, not before, evidence is discovered to support something.

Could God exist? Yes. Could centaurs exist? Yes. But there is no evidence for either. And there is some evidence that suggests both may be mythical beings conjured by the human imagination.

[Wcca]

This for me is how religion stands on 2 points.

1) Destruction and total war.

and

2) Un human nature and total ignorance which causes the end of the world