John 1:1 Discussion (Jesus, Messiah, Torah, gospel, creation)

[Bryan X]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

Jesus Christ Claims to be God
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.


And so on and so on..............

Jesus claimed to be God or declared? Which one? And would there be a difference?

[Ronald]

Hear o Israel the Lord is Echad/One. And the Holy See can Add. (He thinks)
I believe the Torah. No man may add. Elohim is one. Yeshua is the Word of Elohim, was sent as the Lamb of Elohim, Yah's Salvation/Yahoshua/Yeshua. The AV does not say Jesus said he is God. It says I and the Father are one. You nor I can't show how a man and woman become one flesh! How the Church is the body of Messiah. We will not know until the ressurection. Then we will be like Him. God may indeed be a Trinity! But the Bible does not say that. I will believe what the Bible clearly says and not what some man says it says. Yes God is one, Yahoshua is one and the Holy Spirit is one. Just as people say Body, Mind and Spirit, a triunity. But Man was made Dust and Spirit, a Nephesh/soul. The Greeks came up with the Immortal Soul, body, soul and spirit.
God chose the Hebrew, not the Greek. Man says that God chose the Greek language for the NT, God hasn't spoken on the issue. I believe Man and his evil inclination did the chosing. Each person has free will to go in any direction he chooses, I choose the way of Torah.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Bryan X

Yes, that.

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different parts of the same entity.

[Scott1]

Bryan X,

Jesus claimed to be God or declared? Which one? And would there be a difference?

To Jesus, I imagine it was a declaration..... to those who heard it or those who don't believe, it would just be Him claiming to be God.... that's the only difference.

Peace,
Scott

[Bryan X]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

To Jesus, I imagine it was a declaration.....

But you see, we don't really know that. That's just mere speculation, that's why you "imagine" it was a declaration.

to those who heard it or those who don't believe, it would just be Him claiming to be God.... that's the only difference.

To those who heard it and those who don't believe? What about to those who teach it(which would be MANY, MANY preachers of today)? They're always saying that Jesus claimed to be God, then they follow-up with some verses to prove it. Does this mean these preachers 'heard it' or 'don't believe it'? I doubt it.

[Scott1]

Bryan,

I seem to be missing the point you are trying to make.

Of course I am speculating........ I do not profess to be 2,000 years old, so who in their right mind could tell you otherwise???????????

You are trying to split hairs with this claim vs. declared stance........ the issue at hand is that He was, and is....... God.

Scott

[Bryan X]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

Of course I am speculating........

So I guess it's your opinion when you imagine that it was a declaration TO Jesus. :S

You are trying to split hairs with this claim vs. declared stance........

Am I? Sorry about that.

the issue at hand is that He was, and is....... God.

That's not the issue. That's what you believe. In the beginning, I said let's have a debate between those who believe Christ is God and those who believe He isn't God. I didn't start this thread off saying Jesus is God, period! So the issue is: Is Jesus God? What you said above is debatable.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Bryan X

What you said above is debatable.

I give up.......... If you are looking for an answer that CAN NOT be debated, I think you are going to be dissapointed....... short of Jesus tapping you on the arm......!

Peace,
Scott

[Bryan X]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

I give up.......... If you are looking for an answer that CAN NOT be debated, I think you are going to be dissapointed....... short of Jesus tapping you on the arm......!

Peace,
Scott

That's fine with me.

FYI, I'm not looking for an answer. As far as being disappointed, I think both sides end up being disappointed with one another. Atleast that's what I witness of all the debates I've seen or been in on other Forums.

[Ronald]

I certainly do not understand, a Spirit having a Spirit and those two Spirits having another Spirit sitting at the right hand of the first Spirit! I really don't think any sane person could or would believe in a Triune Spirit.

This issue is the issue that separates the Hebrew from the believers in the Messiah.
So God is One, besides God/Creator, there is no other God.
The Hebrew says God created the Aleph Beit, the first born of creation/Word of God/Torah, God spoke the Torah/Word of God and the Heavens & Earth were made.
John 1:1- 5 Says the same in Kabbalah.

When Yeshua taps me on the arm, I believe he is going to say to me and the others who reject a triune God, "Very Good! For upholding theTorah. How easy it would have been to join those False Teachers and teach others to believe in a false God."