does god exist? (Jesus, ritual, beliefs, church, bible)

[Ceridwen018]

Kids know what their parents want them to do as well, however they don't always obey if they don't have someone present to enforce the rules.

[Mr Spinkles]

And Muslims believe God gave us the Koran, and Jews believe God gave us only the Old Testament, and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God. If God wanted us to have instructions, he'd write it into our DNA, not have a bunch of men write it on paper to compete with what thousands of other men wrote on paper, and over which the differing interpretations would lead to division and war.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

And Muslims believe God gave us the Koran, and Jews believe God gave us only the Old Testament,

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God.

That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

If God wanted us to have instructions, he'd write it into our DNA, not have a bunch of men write it on paper to compete with what thousands of other men wrote on paper, and over which the differing interpretations would lead to division and war.

Who are we to question God's ways? Isaiah 55:8 says that God's ways are not ours. If God wanted to do all that He very well could have. But the simple fact of the matter is that He didn't. He gave us His word (wichever one you believe it to be) and it is up to us to act accordingly.

[scratch]

I agree with the DNA argument. Also I think it's a bunch of arse that because of what we've done in our average 70-80 years of life, that we should be judged for it. The universe has been around for billions of years and this 70 years of space supposably determain what happens to us for the rest of forever. Linus your arguments are full of holes. GIve up now and move to utah. Also what "supposeably" happened to people before religion? what then?

[Ceridwen018]

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

I think you're missing the point here a little. The point is, is that EVERY one of these religions believes you have your whole life to turn away from sin and sign up for their religion. Christianity is no different from any of those others. It has no unique factors which separate it from other religions or that attest to it being 'more true' than other religions.

That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

It's a matter of logic, actually. You have no proof or evidence that it WAS divinely inspired. However, there is plenty of evidence that it wasn't, such as the fact that most of the bible's more mythologically based stories and ideas have been copied from the pagan religions it was competing with back in the day. The concept of Jesus and of eating his body and blood is directly copied from ancient Mithraism. The Catholic church actually addressed this in Medeival times. Their verdict? That Mithraism copied it from the bible, even though Mithraism beat out the bible by a few thousand years. How did they say this was possible? Well you see, satan sent demons back in time with the story of Jesus to re-write it as Mithraism so in the future people would be tempted to not believe in the bible because they're using logic. Do you buy that?

Who are we to question God's ways? Isaiah 55:8 says that God's ways are not ours. If God wanted to do all that He very well could have. But the simple fact of the matter is that He didn't. He gave us His word (wichever one you believe it to be) and it is up to us to act accordingly.

First of all, why would god give you a questioning nature if he didn't want you to question?

Secondly, all I have to say is make up your mind. I hear all over the place that we are made in god's image, and that we must follow the bible so we can someday be like god. Here however, you state that god's ways are not ours, so trying to be like god is comparable to a mouse in a circular maze--it's pointless because it can't be done.

If the bible is true, and if all religious ideas are true, then god is not all-good by human standards of good and evil.

[tumble_weed]

Hmm...Some good points.... Warning: this is going to be long...

Originally Posted by ceridwen

dan,

You would rather put your faith into a religious 'theory' with no evidence because it is accepted as fact by the church, rather than in several possible scientific theories which are backed by evidence and which have the potential of gaining more evidence?

I agree, the fact is that science is based on empirical research and religious beliefs are based of faith. Science systematically aims to find factual evidence for and against different ideas but religion is based on emotions. The fact is science shows us what is real and what isn't so we can become informed, religion mainly focuses us on affective feelings. Faith can never give us facts but instead it can only give us beliefs and feelings to judge the world by.

Originally Posted by Irenicas

"...
So we have this cactus. Now imagine a giant cactus that covers the entire earth, has absolute control over us all, and knows everything. This is also invisible, and cannot be sensed. You got that image in your head?...."

A similar analogy can be made with absolutely anything, which means that I can say for instance that life is being controlled by magical invisible shoe laces or candelabras or nostril hair and of course cacti...etc...But anything that I suggest I will always have the same amount of circumstantial evidence as any religion has to promote that God exists

Originally Posted by Linus

Quote: (Originally Posted by scratch)

If god exists then who created god.




I believe that if someone created God then you would have to believe that someone created that being. Then in turn someone would have to have created that being. And then someone would have created that, and so on. The reasoning is seems illogical to me.

then why just stop at the absence of just one god. If you can admit that an endless chain of other gods didn’t create God, why is it necessary for the universe to be created by a god at all?

Originally Posted by linus

I don't believe that science has proven anything because God is above science. Remember that those who believe in God believe that He is all-powerful. If He doesn't want science to detect Him, then it won't.

Why does god need to conceal himself, or is it not god that wants himself to be concealed rather than the people who believe in god just making it impossible for god to actually be detected?

Originally Posted by linus

Where is the fear in loving God and appreciating His goodness, grace, and mercy toward us?

where is the fear in being forced to go to hell if you step out of line?

Yes but God created it and he cares for ALL of His creations. The Universe is big, But God created it and He is in control of it.

What about Jesus is he not cared about more so than "normal" humans. It seems that Jesus is elevated above the rest of humanity and not only that elevated about all other animals and other single celled organisms and even inanimate objects. Man was the species who God spread the word of himself to. Maybe God does care for all of his creating but it does not seem like he cares for everything equally.

Originally Posted by scratch

Also how do we know if god is in control of the universe i mean we don't even know how big the universe is, or what it is, how do we know he's in control who told you?

good point. Perhaps there are actually multiple gods...the god we know might just control this side of the universe, for all we know there could be thousands/millions/billions of other gods who control other parts of the universe.

Also this may be a bit off topic but if there are other species of intelligent life out there somewhere in the universe has god given them the same version of the bible and do they have their own Jesus who died for their sins? What about other religions? Did god give them the same abilities and capabilities as us?

Originally Posted by dan

The manner in which I came to this knowledge transcends scientific methods

Huh? Can you clarify this science is what has the ability to explain things. how can something transcend science. How can you so assuredly say that it's true, this seems to be just blind faith much like Irenicas' cactus example.

Originally Posted by dan

I have witnessed the love of God in all its glory.

So have all the babies who have been blown up by suicide bombers and all the people who have died by being struck down by lightning.

Originally Posted by dan

You speak with such conviction and subscribe to such a belief.

well, same to you, buddy!

Originally Posted by linus

God really and sincerely wants us to worship Him but He wants us to have the choice.

why would god sincerely want us to worship him? That to me seems highly egotistical!

Originally Posted by Yawgmothsavatar

That would be like a parent killing a child for not going to bed on
time.

XD! That really made me laugh. Seems sort of Monty Python-esque

oh yeah but anyway good point, the punishment seems very disproportionate as conversely does the reward for being good (ie going to heaven)

Originally Posted by Yawgmothsavatar

If I missed anyone's argument, please tell me. I'm in the debating mood.

ha so am I...as you can see...

Originally Posted by dan

If/then statements are called inferences.

true. By that same token...Good exists therefore God exists is also an inference.

Originally Posted by dan

You can no more predict His will than you can lick the back of your own neck.

What about the person in the Guinness book of records who has the longest tongue in the world. But anyway the point is that if you had an abnormally long tongue you could lick the back of your neck. Would you then be able to predict god's will then?

Originally Posted by dan

(your perspective is just as tainted by subjectivity as everyone else's)

excuse me! Weren’t you the person who also said

Originally Posted by dan

My faith is not based on scientific proof, but I would sooner deny the rising of the sun than I would the actuality of an omniscient, omnipotent God. I know He exists with more conviction than you know you exist.

I find that contradictory unless you can point out why it isn't? It seems your entire system of beliefs is based on subjectivity in ways which "transcends scientific methods" but yet you go on to condemn Yawgmothsavatar's opinions while you enlighten us about your "evidence [which] is more concrete than any scientific theory "

Originally Posted by ceridwen

why can't he just change his own rules to make good be able to exist without evil? It's an illogical concept of course, but do you think god is ruled by the laws of logic? I say that god created logic, therefore he can manipulate them as he sees fit.

I agree, if we say that God created everything god must have also created logic, so technically to benefit us he could also change his logic with his omnipotence. This to me seems logical, however, if logic changes this may be a pathetic argument.

Originally Posted by linus

Yes they do. People believe whatever they want to belive, and regardless of that belief we still have our entire lives, according to the Christians, to be redeemed of our sins and avoid eternal punishment.

the irony of this as I see it is that being eternally rewarded is just as equally bad, in fact I think doing anything for an eternity would be a punishment regardless of what it is, just remember how long an eternity is...

Originally Posted by linus

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles)

and...oh never mind. Man wrote all of those instructions--not God.



That's a matter of opinion, but anyway...

I would have to disagree, they were all written by the human hand

Hmm alright that's enough and well I have nothing else to rebut....but feel free to rebut my ideas...

[scratch]

Tumble weed!!!! out of all the people who have responded to my topic. Yours has to be by far the best. I think you have valid points.

I was thinking.

Why indeed (this is in tumble weeds excellent reply) does god need to conceal himself/herself. Why must he/she not let science disprove his/her existance.
Don't give me that ours is not to question the will of god. I think that, that is just a loophole in the bible and the people who made the christian relgion up. So that no one will question there control.

[Lightkeeper]

Maybe we are given the responsibility to clear our minds and eyes so we can see. In other words, maybe we can see if we put ourselves in the place to see it.

[(Q)]

Maybe we are given the responsibility to clear our minds and eyes so we can see.

Is there something other than photons that the eyes are supposed to collect and synthesize? If so, there is a Nobel prize waiting.

maybe we can see if we put ourselves in the place to see it.

What place? Are you referring to some special location? Considering that god is supposed to be everywhere, that should not be an issue.

[Lightkeeper]

Many religions tell us that the Divine is within us. Jesus also taught that the Divine is within us, but his message has been highly misconstrued. What these religions tell us is when we peel away the layers of misconception, we can see the Divine within. i.e "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see, God."