Can religion complete a person? (religious leader, faith)

[Zlot]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

But man will always sin, therefore will never be complete.

never thought of it like that, thanks renaldo

[chuck010342]

Originally Posted by orichalcum

Will it keep them full and happy?

depends on which religion your talking about.

[Riven]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

But man will always sin, therefore will never be complete.

The only 'sin' man ever committed is the denial of his true Self - which is complete, loving, sinless, incorruptible, and at home in God's Kingdom.

[Malus 12:9]

Originally Posted by Riven

The only 'sin' man ever committed is the denial of his true Self - which is complete, loving, sinless, incorruptible, and at home in God's Kingdom.

SO it will be ok if I go out and lie, cheat, steal, lust and kill then? Because, as you say, they aren't sins

[Mister Emu]

SO it will be ok if I go out and lie, cheat, steal, lust and kill then? Because, as you say, they aren't sins

I bet Riven will say if you know your true self you wouldn't do any of those things

I believe that faith in God CAN complete you, if you let it. God wants to help you out and wants for you to have a completeness, if you want to let Him complete you He will.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

SO it will be ok if I go out and lie, cheat, steal, lust and kill then? Because, as you say, they aren't sins

No, those aren't ok, because those are denial of one's true Self. You can call those all "sins" if you want. Riven is talking about why they are sins. The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. The only sin is that which violates your own conscience, when you choose to go against that which you know is right.

[Malus 12:9]

Well I just made an *** of myself. I will answer all. Before I do, isn't Riven the dude who thinks the world is an illusion?

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

I bet Riven will say if you know your true self you wouldn't do any of those things

But what if your true self compells you to do these things?

Originally Posted by lilithu

Riven is talking about why they are sins

beforehand, mentioned was

Originally Posted by Riven

The only 'sin' man ever committed is the denial of his true Self

These two collide with each other. Lilithu, you say these are sins. Riveen proceeded to
say "the only sin man ever committed".

I will know not to post sarcasm next time. And conjuncted replies will be replied to
individually.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Renaldo

These two collide with each other. Lilithu, you say these are sins. Riveen proceeded to say "the only sin man ever committed".

No, I said that you can call these things sins, but ultimately I agreed with Riven. They do not collide. They are both true at different levels.

Lying is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.
Stealing is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.
Killing is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.

What if one tells a white lie with the intent of being kind, not hurtful? It does not go against one's conscience, and is not a sin. Similarly, what if one steals because there is no other way to feed one's children? What if one kills because it is the only way to defend an innocent life or lives? These actions are usually bad/sinful, but they are always bad/sinful. It depends on what the circumstances are, and then each person makes their choices based on their own conscience. If they follow their conscience in good faith then it is not a sin, even if it turns out that they're mistaken. If they choose to go against their own conscience, then they are sinning. Ultimately, the only sin is to go against one's own conscience or true Self. The true Self, that part of us which is in tune with God, always wants to do what is right (tho we may not always know how).

But this whole argument is a digression, imo. The real point of contention here isn't the definition of sin. The real point of contention here is the perceived the nature of man. If one views humanity as inherently good (but imperfect/misguided) then one believes that man can complete himself with the guidance of things like religion. If one views humanity as hopelessly flawed, then one believes that man can never complete himself no matter what. What I perceive is that Riven falls into the former camp and you fall into the latter. And I'm sure that you both will let me know if I have perceived incorrectly.

(I understood that you were being sarcastic, btw.)

[michel]

Originally Posted by lilithu

No, I said that you can call these things sins, but ultimately I agreed with Riven. They do not collide. They are both true at different levels.

Lying is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.
Stealing is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.
Killing is a sin because it goes against one's conscience or true Self.

What if one tells a white lie with the intent of being kind, not hurtful? It does not go against one's conscience, and is not a sin. Similarly, what if one steals because there is no other way to feed one's children? What if one kills because it is the only way to defend an innocent life or lives? These actions are usually bad/sinful, but they are always bad/sinful. It depends on what the circumstances are, and then each person makes their choices based on their own conscience. If they follow their conscience in good faith then it is not a sin, even if it turns out that they're mistaken. If they choose to go against their own conscience, then they are sinning. Ultimately, the only sin is to go against one's own conscience or true Self. The true Self, that part of us which is in tune with God, always wants to do what is right (tho we may not always know how).

But this whole argument is a digression, imo. The real point of contention here isn't the definition of sin. The real point of contention here is the perceived the nature of man. If one views humanity as inherently good (but imperfect/misguided) then one believes that man can complete himself with the guidance of things like religion. If one views humanity as hopelessly flawed, then one believes that man can never complete himself no matter what. What I perceive is that Riven falls into the former camp and you fall into the latter. And I'm sure that you both will let me know if I have perceived incorrectly.

(I understood that you were being sarcastic, btw.)

Thank you lilith - that paragraph I have highlited in black is very good, well written - and has helped me with 'grey areas' I always felt uncomfortable with.

[EnhancedSpirit]

Originally Posted by lilithu

The only sin is that which violates your own conscience, when you choose to go against that which you know is right.

I disagree with this part right here. There are 7 deadly sins that creep up on us, and we are often not aware we are sinning.

I do agree that a sin is a denial of ones true self. But we do not just sin consciously. Sometimes we become separated from our spiritual selves without knowing. This is why church or even just a good family or friends for support can help keep us from being unaware for too long.

The deadly sins known to the Christians, Jews, and Muslims are:
Prideis excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.
Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.
Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.
Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.
Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.
Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.
Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

Here is an alternate set of deadly sins from Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi,

• Wealth without Work
• Pleasure without Conscience
• Science without Humanity
• Knowledge without Character
• Politics without Principle
• Commerce without Morality
• Worship without Sacrifice