Thou shalt have no other gods before me (bible, Israel)

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

When Moses come down from the mountain carring the first tablets, he came across his tribe worshipping a God (Baal, I beleive) in the form of a golden calf. Exodus 32 1:6

The commandment is in two verses in Exodus 20:3 and 20:23 and, of course in Deuteronomy 5:7 and conveys that God would not share a space with other Gods. So they, the others, must have existed if God said so. Right?

-pah-

[Runt]

The commandment is in two verses in Exodus 20:3 and 20:23 and, of course in Deuteronomy 5:7 and conveys that God would not share a space with other Gods. So they, the others, must have existed if God said so. Right?

That, or the verses convey that God doesn't want anyone imagining that there are other Gods... perhaps he means that there shall be no space in humanity's heart/mind for other (imaginary) Gods. I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't want them thinking they owed their loyalty to a bunch of imaginary parents that they made up in their heads!

That is, of course, assuming the Christian God exists, or actually ever said anything in the Bible. My opinion is that, no, he doesn't and didn't... but there ARE other ways of looking at those verses regardless.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by Runt

That, or the verses convey that God doesn't want anyone imagining that there are other Gods... perhaps he means that there shall be no space in humanity's heart/mind for other (imaginary) Gods. I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't want them thinking they owed their loyalty to a bunch of imaginary parents that they made up in their heads!



That is, of course, assuming the Christian God exists, or actually ever said anything in the Bible. My opinion is that, no, he doesn't and didn't... but there ARE other ways of looking at those verses regardless.

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with you, Runt. Without an an analysis of the Hebrew (which is beyond me) either one of us could be right - in the interests of an academic issue.

But do allow me to present a further bit of information. The commandment was delivered to the "chosen" following their time in Egypt.

http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/books...hapter0201.htm

We are told that the ancestors of Abraham, who dwelt in old time beyond the Euphrates, served other gods (Josh. 24:2). In Egypt the Hebrews came into close touch with an ancient and elaborated religious cult, with its temples, and sacred scribes, and magicians and sorcerers (Gen. 41:8; Exod. 7:11), and upon the exodus of the chosen people from that land of bondage Jehovah “executed judgments against all the gods of Egypt” (Exod. 12:12; Num. 33:4). During their journeys and in the land of Canaan Israel “chose new gods” (Judg. 5:8; Dent. 32:17), and ran away after the gods of the nations that were round about them, and all through their history, down to the time of the Babylonian exile, they persisted more or less openly in the idolatrous practices of the nations with whom they had intercourse. They found no nation or people without a god and a religious cult.

Now if you had a Christian or Jewish bias, you might call these Gods imaginary but then it would be difficult to explain why the God of Abraham was real and not the others. One who reads the bible literally would have to say that if named, the god existed.

-pah-

[anders]

I find it obvious that the command means "There are lots of gods, but you, Israel, must only have me". Other gods are mentioned in the OT. The examples pah quoted should be more than enough.

My favourite argument is that God declares that he is a "jealous God" (Ex. 20:5). What could he possibly be jealous of? The only solution would be a god who is even mightier. This seems to be the view of the Gnosticists, who called the creator god "Samael" (the god of the blinded), clearly inferior to his boss: Jaldabaoth is the chief ruler, and later on the Demiurge [the Great Artificer or Fabricator, the Architect of the universe] par excellence. (last sentence from the Catholic Encyclopedia's articles Gnosticism and Demiurge).

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by pah

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with you, Runt. Without an an analysis of the Hebrew (which is beyond me) either one of us could be right - in the interests of an academic issue.

Perhaps all things are possible, but there is absolutely no basis, beyond wishful thinking, to doubt the monolatry of the early Israelites. Even my username points to remnants of belief in the West Semitic Divine Council, as does Biblical references to the "Sons of God".

There is scholarship in the field for those who are interested in pursuing it. I noted a number of books elsewhere, and the list could easily be extended. An overview can be found here.

[Ronald]

Elohim is one, the one and only creator, He says "Beside me there is no other god."
Elohim created Adam in his image, male and female He created them. My opinion and the opinion of countless Rabbis, Elohim is/has attributes of both male and female/Elohim.
The second commandment is the prohibition of idols, four negative injunctions (1) forbids belief in idols. (2) forbids possession of idols. (3) forbids worship (prostration, sacrifice, offerings, libations) (4) forbids worship, by means unique to it.
references TaNaCH.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by Ronald

Elohim is one, the one and only creator, He says "Beside me there is no other god."
Elohim created Adam in his image, male and female He created them. My opinion and the opinion of countless Rabbis, Elohim is/has attributes of both male and female/Elohim.
The second commandment is the prohibition of idols, four negative injunctions (1) forbids belief in idols. (2) forbids possession of idols. (3) forbids worship (prostration, sacrifice, offerings, libations) (4) forbids worship, by means unique to it.
references TaNaCH.

It is serendipitious that you used Elohim rather than another name for the god of the Old Testament. From one of the same sites, I quoted earlier

http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/books...hapter0201.htm

... The names of the various deities of the nations found in the Scriptures give a more specific witness to the actual religious thought and worship of the ancient peoples with whom the Israelites came in contact. The most common Hebrew word for God is Elohim (___) and we find it applied both to the gods of the nations and to the God of Israel. Dagon, Chemosh, and Baal as well as Jehovah are called Elohim (comp. 1st Sam. 5:7; Judg. 11:24; 1st Kings 18:24), and even magistrates and rulers bear the same title (Exod. 21:6; Psa. 82:1, 6). The word seems to have a natural linguistic connection with El (__), which is also used to designate the gods of the nations as well as Israel’s God. Both these words express primarily the idea of power. Israel’s God is spoken of as “a great and terrible El” (Deut. 7:21), and “the great, the mighty and the terrible El” (Neh. 9:32). The plural form of Elohim has been accounted for in different ways: some are of opinion that the plural indicates a polytheistic origin and usage of the name; others explain it as the plural of majesty, and others as a designed recognition of the manifold powers inherent in the divine nature. So Elohim is con*ceived as the pluripotent Being, who combines in himself and represents all the powers on high ...

It seems the name is not unique to the Jews and would be further indication that there are other gods recognized by God and the Jews.

-pah-

[Ronald]

Serenedipity!!!

[Zadakiel]

This is officially my first post; I hope I will offer some wisdom though I doubt it. It seems everyone on this website are rather bright. I only hope I can offer the best I have to offer. With that, let us move on to my post.

The debate of Many Gods or but one supreme deity? To what might I add to this debate would be quite little indeed. All I can say is what I believe and have experienced and come to know as Truth for me. Then again, Truth is Truth and can neither be proven nor disproven. It merely is. The only way to find Truth is through experience, and no experience shall be placed above another. Truth is subjective, or absolute, or not. Maybe both, who knows? Sometimes truth is not found outside of Contradiction but through it.

Take the matter of gods and God. There are many gods, as there is only One God. "Is it not written that Ye are Gods?" The essence of YHVH is in all. Would it not be then understood that bearing the divine spark of The Mighty Ones (Elohim), that we, too, must be gods? If we deliniate such things as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and that it is written "Ye Are Gods," how much futher of a step is it to proclaim a Pantheon? Gods are not just made of mortal philosophical humans, but if indeed creation of all was done by the Alpha And Omega, The Created Creator, The Beginning and The End, the Great AHYH-ASR-AHYH, then would not these too bear this same spark of divinity? If not, then Humanity (whom was given Dominion over all things on Earth) surely would have created Gods by their own powers bestowed unto them by the Father Most High. There is, on the other side of the coin, only ONE GOD.

I say there is only one God because there is but one supreme source of all that is and is not. Even if Odin were real, and if Okainos did mate with his wife to give birth to Gaia and Oranos, and that all the Gods were brought forth when the Ancient Ones had already removed themselves from the swamps of Babylon and Marduk slayed Tiamat to claim these thrones for his brothers and sisters, there is still a beginning to it all. There is a point where even Okainos came from, in which he was made. Odin was still brought forth from a place that already existed. Of this great source, we are all a part of. Mere notes in the great orchestral piece of Existence. To the Christians we are the Body of Christ, thus of God and are God and are gods, as it is written. To the Lions of Juda, the great YHVH has made it quite clear that we are ONE. To the Athiest, well I suppose it comes down to Super String theory, which I don't want to get into right now. Side Note:"I will go before my Father who is Heaven and make ready a great Mansion for you within the Kingdom of Heaven." "Surely I say unto you that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Heaven inside, then we are heaven manifested, and are not, yet are; and are masters of Heaven, yet are not, yet are. We are God, and we are not, yet are. So the Game plays on.

As for the Ten Commandments, I see it as this, if you absolutely must worship something, worship that which created you. This "entity" created all that is was and ever will be, yet did not, yet has. It's kind of convoluted, and ironically funny. Several times it is referenced that God would rather be your friend, but "filters" continually depict a Desert God of Wrath and Vengence. I could get into that matter a little more, but not here. I am far too lazy for that right now. Suffice it to say, I believe there are many gods and only One God. We are All One, in my eyes atleast. I do not believe I have helped significantly in this debate, but I do hope I have offered some place to look at the situation. Thank you for taking the time to read over my entire post.

Sincerely,
Zadakiel

[Linus]

Originally Posted by pah

When Moses come down from the mountain carring the first tablets, he came across his tribe worshipping a God (Baal, I beleive) in the form of a golden calf. Exodus 32 1:6

The commandment is in two verses in Exodus 20:3 and 20:23 and, of course in Deuteronomy 5:7 and conveys that God would not share a space with other Gods. So they, the others, must have existed if God said so. Right?

The israelites were worshipping a god that they apperently created themselves (or at least a god that Aaron had created) according to Exodus 32:4. This does not imply that other gods truly exist, but rather that people can create other gods besides that of the Jews' one, true God. I think that what is meant by the commandment is not only shall you not worship other gods (that you or anyone else has created) but also you shall not make anything more important than God.