Perfection? Impossible? (Creator, beliefs, creation, experience, faith)

[Tawn]

Ok heres my suggestion, perfection as an all applicable term is not possible.
It may be theoretically possible to be perfect in regards to a specific criteria, but just simply 'perfect' is not.

Howso?

Ok, well simply put, because every advantage carries a disadvantage... and because two opposing distinctions might both be seen as perfect in different lights.

For example, one might consider being able to know everything, perfect. Yet I'd argue that knowing everything would make existance utterly dull. You would never experience the joy of discovery, or the pleasure of fantasising about the unknown. Additionally, you could never be creative - since you already know the limits of what you can do and know in deed what you will do.

Likewise ultimate and supreme ability might be considered perfect. Yet, with hightened ability comes the jealousy and envy of others. Additionally, you can never experience a challenge - you will never be challenged.

More problems are present if we consider perfection being something. Because if you are something, you are not something else.. and not being something isnt very perfect. So shouldnt perfection be being everything? But how is being everything perfect when being nothing and being something without being everything are now things you arent. The fact that you arent nothing or a singlular being isnt very perfect.

I say perfection is impossible unless perfection is closely defined as being certain things.

Some say 'Why would a perfect God create an imperfect world?'.. yet there is a greater conundrum.. 'Why would a perfect God create anything at all?'
Is the creation of 'something' a more perfect action than the creation of 'nothing' or non-creation? Can any action be considered perfect when any action excudes the alternatives and non-action?

Ok that was just speculative pondering.. dont ake it as an attack on God or the like.. just a bizzare thought process I needed to expunge..

[michel]

Originally Posted by Tawn

Ok heres my suggestion, perfection as an all applicable term is not possible.
It may be theoretically possible to be perfect in regards to a specific criteria, but just simply 'perfect' is not.

Howso?

Ok, well simply put, because every advantage carries a disadvantage... and because two opposing distinctions might both be seen as perfect in different lights.

For example, one might consider being able to know everything, perfect. Yet I'd argue that knowing everything would make existance utterly dull. You would never experience the joy of discovery, or the pleasure of fantasising about the unknown. Additionally, you could never be creative - since you already know the limits of what you can do and know in deed what you will do.

Likewise ultimate and supreme ability might be considered perfect. Yet, with hightened ability comes the jealousy and envy of others. Additionally, you can never experience a challenge - you will never be challenged.

More problems are present if we consider perfection being something. Because if you are something, you are not something else.. and not being something isnt very perfect. So shouldnt perfection be being everything? But how is being everything perfect when being nothing and being something without being everything are now things you arent. The fact that you arent nothing or a singlular being isnt very perfect.

I say perfection is impossible unless perfection is closely defined as being certain things.

Some say 'Why would a perfect God create an imperfect world?'.. yet there is a greater conundrum.. 'Why would a perfect God create anything at all?'
Is the creation of 'something' a more perfect action than the creation of 'nothing' or non-creation? Can any action be considered perfect when any action excudes the alternatives and non-action?

Ok that was just speculative pondering.. dont ake it as an attack on God or the like.. just a bizzare thought process I needed to expunge..

I agree with you totally about perfection being an impossibility - and don't be tempted to redefine perfection "perfection is impossible unless perfection is closely defined as being certain things"- leave perfection where it is, please!

Why would God create an imperfect world ? - you said it yourself, life would have no meaning or purpose if it was perfect.

Why would a perfect God create anything at all ? I'd like to ask him that myself, if I'm ever lucky enough to meet him!

I don't see your comments as being an attack on God - I see them being logical thoughts, as you say, of the possible scenarios. Nothing wrong in that.

[Malus 12:9]

Some suggest that God created us in an imperfect material world so that we would not rely on ourselves but come to love and rely on the perfect God. We were all born with the sentence of Death in ourselves. (2cr 1:9)

[stemann]

Tawn's argument i think is a very good one, becuase it highlights the logical paradoxes of omniscience, omnipotence etc., that pandamonk was talking about in the other thread.

Also, there is the Euthyphro dilemma, which says how do we know that what God is doing is good? Because when God says something is 'good' that makes it so. In this case, he could say anything is 'good', such as murder and things like that, so what's the point of praising him when he would be equally praiseworthy in doing exactly the opposite?

This is the same as why did he create anything, when it would be no different if he hadn't created anything. Christian's say 'he created us out of love for us' or something, and we are supposed to be thankful that he created us. But how can we be thankful for him creating us when if he hadn't created us we would have no means to be unthankful? This doesn't really make sense and I'm even confusing myself here.

I wonder how Christianity and other religions would get on if aliens landed and told us about their religion, or proved that they had actually created us? They would probably make up another story to get out of it. The thing is, with stuff like religion, even if you show someone how misguided they are and prove that their beliefs are logically inaccurate, they can say 'well God made it that way, I have unshakeable faith in God' and so they do not think rationally as they seem to think faith defies logic, or that being faithful means you don't have to think logically. But to not think logically, then why should you do what God wants? They are just suspending some logic and thinking the way they want rather than the way they should.
Religion just comes from upbringing and the shape of your brain, anything you are taught to believe when you are a child you will believe, depending on the susceptibility of your brain. This includes belief in God, how to cross the street, what makes a good person, how to act etc. I'm sure someone said that God is just your father deified or something. And even on the simpsons it said that free will arises through the paradox of being taught how to think.
If a teacher or parent tells you to 'think for yourself', then in obeying the command you are disobeying the command.

Anyway ive gone completely off on a tangent. Sorry again.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perfection is either semantic/tautological or cognitively meaningless. We can assert that a 2-dimentional figure is, or is not, a perfect circle because we have a definition of circle. We cannot meaningfully assert that a 2-dimensional figure is, or is not, perfect.

[Ordination of Aaron]

Try explaining to your dog why you decided to bring it into your home.

As for perfection, it's in relation to god, and as god is the creator, his every action is perfect. The imperfect world you speak of was intended by a perfect god.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Ordination of Aaron

Try explaining to your dog why you decided to bring it into your home. As for perfection, it's in relation to god, and as god is the creator, his every action is perfect. The imperfect world you speak of was intended by a perfect god.

That is interesting speculation, perhaps similar to what your dog might 'sense', but hardly more evidenced.

[stemann]

I think your dog analogy is trying to say we can't understand God because we are mortal and lesser than him.

So we are just meant to say, 'Well, we don't understand God, but there's this book called the Bible and there's GodTV and there's priests and the Pope and all kinds of people telling me about Him, so I've got to start praising Him and having faith in Him. I'm sure it will all turn out OK even though i don't understand what's going on generally because I am just a human and therefore my brain is not complex enough to understand what is going on.'

There is nothing you couldn't understand if it was explained properly. That is the point of consciousness.

[Ordination of Aaron]

Originally Posted by stemann

I think your dog analogy is trying to say we can't understand God because we are mortal and lesser than him.

So we are just meant to say, 'Well, we don't understand God, but there's this book called the Bible and there's GodTV and there's priests and the Pope and all kinds of people telling me about Him, so I've got to start praising Him and having faith in Him. I'm sure it will all turn out OK even though i don't understand what's going on generally because I am just a human and therefore my brain is not complex enough to understand what is going on.'

There is nothing you couldn't understand if it was explained properly. That is the point of consciousness.

Don't put words in my mouth. I am merely saying that, at least in this form, with the restrictions of the human brain, we're not able, and would not be able, to understand the answer he'd give us.

[Jayhawker Soule]

You imply an understanding of him at least sufficient to make unevidenced assertions.