Did Jesus ever claim to be God? (Jesus Christ, Earth, Messiah)

[Montalban]

I know that many Muslims and others, such as the Jehovahs Witness claim that He never did. Odd then that some Jews wanted to kill Him; charging Him with the 'blasphemy' of claiming to be the Messiah. They at least understood what He was saying.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

[may]

No Jesus did not claim to be God he claimed to be Gods son. the following scriptures are Jesus himself speaking.

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God(john 3;16-18)

Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. (John 17;1-3)

But when Jesus heard it he said: "This sickness is not with death as its object, but is for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it.(John 11;4)and martha believed what Jesus claimed to be

she said to him(Jesus)Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God, the One coming into the world(john 11;27)

also according to a number of bible versions(john 9;35-37)saysthe following

Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: "Are you putting faith in the Son of man?" The [man] answered: "And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?" Jesus said to him: "You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.

at no time did Jesus claim to be God, to be the same as his Father. The most he ever claimed for himself was that he was the Son of God; in a unique sense, it is true, but not God himself, only the Son of God.—John 10:36.

[Montalban]

Obviously you believe that the Jews got the wrong charge on Jesus?

They are one
I John 5:7
“There are those that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one”

Philippians 2:5-7 "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing."

Jesus said (in John 10:38)
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

They are of one accord
John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Jesus is equal to God
Colossians 1:19
“For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him”

Jesus has the power and wisdom of God
1 Cor 1:24
“...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Jesus is eternal like God
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jesus Himself commanded that we do things in the name of the three
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

In this passage, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are said to share one name (notice that the term “name” is singular, not plural), and that name is almost certainly Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Bible. We know this because the name Yahweh is applied to both the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Peter tells us, “David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a stool for your feet.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:34–36). Here God is “the Lord” who speaks to “my Lord,” Jesus. When one looks at the Old Testament quotation, one finds, “Yahweh says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’” (Ps. 110:1); so here the Father is called Yahweh.

In Philippians 2:10–11, we read: “[A]t the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is a reference to Isaiah 45:18–24, which tells us: “I, Yahweh, speak the truth . . . I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn. . . . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. ‘Only in Yahweh,’ it shall be said of me, ‘are righteousness and strength.’ “ Here Paul applies the prophecy of every knee bending and every tongue confessing to Jesus, resulting in the prophecy that they will “confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh.” The stress on Christ as God is also picked up by the early Church Fathers (e.g., Ignatius, below).

Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh (“I AM,” in English translation). In John 8:58, when questioned about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” His audience understood exactly who he was claiming to be. “So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple” (John 8:59).

With the personal name of God, Yahweh, being applied to both the Father and the Son, it is almost certainly applied to the Spirit, and thus to all three members of the Trinity.


The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Montalban

Odd then that some Jews wanted to kill Him; charging Him with the 'blasphemy' of claiming to be the Messiah. They at least understood what He was saying.

There is no reason to believe the Passion narrative to be anything other than an anti-Judaic diatribe fabricated by an increasingly gentile sect.

[Montalban]

The writings of the early church confirm this...

Jesus and God are united
Ignatius' Epistle to the Magnesians
“CHAPTER 7
7:1 Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, [being united with Him],”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

Ignatius...
Epistle to the Magnesians
“CHAPTER 7
7:1 Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, [being united with Him],”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

The unity of them is continually repeated...
He opens his Epistle to the Philadelphians
“Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, to the church of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, which is in Philadelphia of Asia...”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

Again in his opening address to his Epistle the Romans
“Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our God; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans, being worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy in purity, and having the presidency of love, walking in the law of Christ and bearing the Father's name; which church also I salute in the name

of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father; unto them that in flesh and spirit are united unto His every commandment, being filled with the grace of God without wavering, and filtered clear from every foreign stain; abundant greeting in Jesus Christ our God in blamelessness.”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

God and Jesus, Jesus and God. He says Jesus is the only Son of God, no mention that Satan is a co-creation equal to Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, He is also God.

Epistle to the Ephesians
CHAPTER 5
5:1 For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

That is, unity of the community, of the church, of Christ with God.
But also 'three' comes up so many times,
Further in his Epistle to the Ephesians
CHAPTER 19
19:1 And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord -- three mysteries to be cried aloud -- the which were wrought in the silence of God.
Ibid

“The episkopoi's immediate subordinates were the `presbyteroi' and the `diakonoi' who together with him constituted the higher Kleroi, a trinity if you will: the Father (episkopos), Son (diakonos) and spirit-filled apostolic council (presbyteroi)”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

As stated earlier, the organisation of the Church reflected the triune nature of God. One Church, three offices of clergy.
This reflects the passages in Scripture that say that Jesus was with the fullness of God, that is, they are united, and they are equal.
1 Cor 1 "24
“...Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Thus the Didache* (written after 50 AD but before 120AD; and again, well before some of the books of the Bible were written) states...
7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptise.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptise {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Montalban

The writings of the early church confirm this...

The writings of the earloy church were increasingly antisemitic as they promulgated their replacement theology while demonizing the Jews.

[Montalban]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

The writings of the earloy church were increasingly antisemitic as they promulgated their replacement theology while demonizing the Jews.

Which of the writings I quoted do this? If none of them, then what relevence does it have to this thread? (actually if any of them do this, what's this got to do with the topic?)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Montalban

Which of the writings I quoted do this?

What you quote is irrelevant. We both know that the 'anti-Judaizing' theme dominated the post Temple period.

The relevance of my remarks rests on your reliance upon the authenticity of the anti-Judaic pericopes of the Gospels. You assume authenticity as a matter of faith. It is a baseless assumption.

[Montalban]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

What you quote is irrelevant. We both know that the 'anti-Judaizing' theme dominated the post Temple period.

It is to the debate you want to start; anti-semitism.
So, you are in need of another thread, unless you can bring to bear what 'anti-Judaizing' has to do with claims of Jesus.

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

The relevance of my remarks rests on your reliance upon the authenticity of the anti-Judaic pericopes of the Gospels. You assume authenticity as a matter of faith. It is a baseless assumption.

I asked you which were anti-Jewish. You said it was irrelevant, now you seem to say that I've relied on anti-Jewish pericopes (extracts). So have I or haven't I? Yes! Which ones? Irrelevant!

So, I just 'have'. And it is not a part of this thread, unless you bring in some context other than just stating that somwhere sometime something I've used is anti-Jewish!

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Montalban

You said it was irrelevant, now you seem to say that I've relied on anti-Jewish pericopes (extracts). So have I or haven't I? Yes! Which ones?

Pay attention: "Odd then that some Jews wanted to kill Him; charging Him with the 'blasphemy' of claiming to be the Messiah."