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  #31  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:52 PM
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I'm against it, but more for philosophical reasons
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  #32  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:07 PM
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I'm against creating AI with super human intelligence and super human awareness. That would pretty much mean the end of humanity.
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception View Post
We have a discussion going on in the General Discussions section about if creating true AIs is even possible, but for this thread we are going to assume it is. If we created machines that were self aware, able to reason, perhaps 'evolve' to have emotion, etc how would that affect any religious beliefs you may have? Also, do your religious beliefs give you an opinion on if we even should create artificial intelligence? One issue is that many view God as the creator, saying he creates and takes life. If we create AIs, is that the same as God creating Human beings? We almost are AIs except that we are organic and not machines. Not sure what true issues may arise here, I hope it is clear what discussion I am trying to initiate.
The discusion you are trying to initiate is clear. But don't forget we already can create life. For example, by cloning someone.

But back to the AI thing. I think it will be clear for religious people: strong AIs are indeed alive, but they don't have a soul so they will never be real living creatures. <- That would be a christian answer, not mine. To me, the reapers (scary!) are even more alive than us. And I would like to say "i'm against of creating them" but... If it were my decision, I think I couldn't help it and I would end up creating them lol
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  #34  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:56 PM
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The AI would have to be programmed to need anything like hunger, lust or other things that plague organisms. If they don't care they are missing something?
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  #35  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by idav View Post
The AI would have to be programmed to need anything like hunger, lust or other things that plague organisms. If they don't care they are missing something?
Why?
I mean, are hunger, lust and or other things what define sapience?
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  #36  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception View Post
We have a discussion going on in the General Discussions section about if creating true AIs is even possible, but for this thread we are going to assume it is. If we created machines that were self aware, able to reason, perhaps 'evolve' to have emotion, etc how would that affect any religious beliefs you may have? Also, do your religious beliefs give you an opinion on if we even should create artificial intelligence? One issue is that many view God as the creator, saying he creates and takes life. If we create AIs, is that the same as God creating Human beings? We almost are AIs except that we are organic and not machines. Not sure what true issues may arise here, I hope it is clear what discussion I am trying to initiate.
If someone can show me a machine capable of strong AI which can also experience Qualia then I will give up my belief in God and in fact the whole of religion will be falsified.

Religion knows that "Intelligence and mathematical truths" exist in a separate platonic realm and explicitly claims that Intelligence belongs to the realm of God.

There are strong Platonists like Gödel and Roger Penrose who argue that strong AI is impossible and if someone can show me a machine capable of strong AI then I will give up my belief in Religion and God.
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  #37  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
If someone can show me a machine capable of strong AI which can also experience Qualia then I will give up my belief in God and in fact the whole of religion will be falsified.

Religion knows that "Intelligence and mathematical truths" exist in a separate platonic realm and explicitly claims that Intelligence belongs to the realm of God.

There are strong Platonists like Gödel and Roger Penrose who argue that strong AI is impossible and if someone can show me a machine capable of strong AI then I will give up my belief in Religion and God.
Lol no such machine exists, but I have a question. Why wouldn't a machine be able to extract those truths if their hardware matches that of the brain? Wouldn't a human clone have the capacity for qualia?

Penrose states that strong AI is impossible with current classical computing, but I think he said if there were quantum computers then it's a possibility. That's part of the permise of Orch Or.

If qualia and consciousness are fundamental aspects of reality, like spin or charge, and if a machine has consciousness, then I don't see how that invalidates God. Infact it would strengthen my belief that consciousness is a pervasive force of the universe and all matter possesses it.
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  #38  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shahz View Post
Lol no such machine exists, but I have a question.
That's one of the strong reasons why I am religious and believe in God. It still baffles me.

Quote:
Why wouldn't a machine be able to extract those truths if their hardware matches that of the brain? Wouldn't a human clone have the capacity for qualia?
A machine can't able to access those truths because humans beings have something which they don't. Humans have a metaphysical mind and a metaphysical Intelligence and this is in the noumenal world. This is the reason why human beings can answer to questions for which no algorithm exists. There is something seriously wrong with our conscious thought.

“Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine.”

– Kurt Gödel

“Gödel’s Theorem shows that human thought is more complex and less mechanical than anyone had ever believed”

- Rudy Rucker

We understand so little about developmental biology and its physiology and how the differentiation takes place. At what point something is conscious and not conscious? Its hard to draw a demarcation line.


Quote:
Penrose states that strong AI is impossible with current classical computing, but I think he said if there were quantum computers then it's a possibility. That's part of the permise of Orch Or.
No, Penrose says that Consciousness has non-computable ingredients and its purely a mathematical argument and the last thing I doubt about Sir Roger Penrose is his mathematical abilities and he thinks there is nothing in the current physics which gives us a non-computable world. Non-computable world belongs to the realm of God.

The Third Culture - Chapter 14

Its a misunderstanding of Penrose views as Penrose says,

"When I argue that the action of the conscious brain is noncomputational, I'm not talking about quantum computers. Quantum computers are perfectly well-defined concepts, which don't involve any change in physics; they don't even perform noncomputational actions. Just by themselves, they don't explain what's going on in the conscious actions of the brain. Dan Dennett thinks of a quantum computer as a skyhook, his term for a miracle. However, it's a perfectly sensible thing. Nevertheless, I don't think it can explain the way the brain works. That's another misunderstanding of my views. But there could be some element of quantum computation in brain action. Perhaps I could say something about that."

"I suppose this is because so much of science is done that way these days; you simulate physical activity computationally. People don't realize that something can be noncomputational and yet perfectly scientific, perfectly mathematically describable. The fact that I'm coming into all this from a mathematical background makes it easier for me to appreciate that there are things that aren't computational but are perfectly good mathematics."

The OR/orch model of quantum consciousness is treated as pesudoscience by the scientific community and a complete B.S. I only accept Penrose's mathematical arguments not his speculations on quantum consciousness.

Quote:
If qualia and consciousness are fundamental aspects of reality, like spin or charge, and if a machine has consciousness, then I don't see how that invalidates God. Infact it would strengthen my belief that consciousness is a pervasive force of the universe and all matter possesses it.
For God to exist scientific realism must be false. Substance dualism is a must otherwise there is no point in still holding on to belief in God and religion. If you want to accept religion then accept it in its own way otherwise its rather good to be a strong atheist and move forward.
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  #39  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
That's one of the strong reasons why I am religious and believe in God. It still baffles me.
You're putting too much hope in one claim to believe in God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
A machine can't able to access those truths because humans beings have something which they don't. Humans have a metaphysical mind and a metaphysical Intelligence and this is in the noumenal world. This is the reason why human beings can answer to questions for which no algorithm exists. There is something seriously wrong with our conscious thought.

“Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine.”

– Kurt Gödel

“Gödel’s Theorem shows that human thought is more complex and less mechanical than anyone had ever believed”

- Rudy Rucker

We understand so little about developmental biology and its physiology and how the differentiation takes place. At what point something is conscious and not conscious? Its hard to draw a demarcation line.
If the architecutre of the human mind was exactly duplicated (of course this is impossible), I do not see any reason whatsoever why it a machine would not be conscious and not have subjective experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
The OR/orch model of quantum consciousness is treated as pesudoscience by the scientific community and a complete B.S. I only accept Penrose's mathematical arguments not his speculations on quantum consciousness.
Orch/OR is not complete BS. The scientific community has no idea what is right and wrong with regards to consciousness theories. They're lost. A lot of the criticisms against Orch OR have been addressed. When Krauss made fun of Hameroff a few years ago about how biological systems are too warm and cannot have quantum decoherence the entire audience laughed. Yet photosynthesis, bird migration and DNA have been found to use quantum mechanics in the following years. There was recently a paper by a guy by the name of Bandyopadhyay which showed that microtubules have qubits.

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Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
For God to exist scientific realism must be false. Substance dualism is a must otherwise there is no point in still holding on to belief in God and religion. If you want to accept religion then accept it in its own way otherwise its rather good to be a strong atheist and move forward.
That's your view, it doesn't make it valid. Religion and belief in God are not synonymous. What if idealism were true, the universe is conscious and we're all a part of the mental framework of God? Substance dualism only works with monotheistic faiths, idealism works with eastern faiths. And being a strong atheist is almost as illogical as being a strong theist.
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  #40  
Old 08-24-2012, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shahz View Post
You're putting too much hope in one claim to believe in God.
Well, I have a wide range of insights and good reasonable arguments to believe in the existence of gods.

Quote:
If the architecutre of the human mind was exactly duplicated (of course this is impossible), I do not see any reason whatsoever why it a machine would not be conscious and not have subjective experience.
Cognitive scientists doesn't study the problem of qualia and some cognitive scientists with in the community think that they should be taken seriously and there is nothing in the chemistry of the Brain which can generate qualia or subjective experiences.

What is sweetness? What is redness? When I eat sugar specific receptors on my tongue get stimulated since their configurations change and induce an action potential or an electrical impulse which travels through the axon and reaches the never ending and this is done by Na+ and K+ ions using ATP's and this action potential is coupled to Ca++ ions and they cleave the synaptic vesicles releasing the neuro-transmitters and the intensity of the signal at the other neuron depends on two factors-

1. The kind of gate that these neuro-transmitters open at the other neuron and there by changing the intensity of the signal.

2. The amount of neuro-transmitters which has been released.

and at the neuron-muscle junctions again the action potential is coupled with Ca++ ions and Ca++ ions contract and relax actin and myosin fibres in a specific way and leads to specific actions and say the vocal chords contract and relax in a specific way, say for example I say "Sugar was too sweet". Now where in all this the processing of "sweetness" takes place? Why the hell I have to experience sweetness? Why doesn't it all go away in the dark as David Chalmers says?

This is the reason even if you duplicate the whole brain without solving or knowing what qualia is a machine won't be able to have subjective experiences. What it is like to be a machine?

Quote:
Orch/OR is not complete BS. The scientific community has no idea what is right and wrong with regards to consciousness theories. They're lost. A lot of the criticisms against Orch OR have been addressed. When Krauss made fun of Hameroff a few years ago about how biological systems are too warm and cannot have quantum decoherence the entire audience laughed. Yet photosynthesis, bird migration and DNA have been found to use quantum mechanics in the following years. There was recently a paper by a guy by the name of Bandyopadhyay which showed that microtubules have qubits.
Bernard D'espagnat argues that what we call empirical reality is only a state of mind and that means even the brain falls under empirical reality and therefore consciousness cannot arise out of Brain or matter, in fact the whole empirical reality as well as conscious thought has to arise from a metaphysical mind.

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That's your view, it doesn't make it valid. Religion and belief in God are not synonymous. What if idealism were true, the universe is conscious and we're all a part of the mental framework of God? Substance dualism only works with monotheistic faiths, idealism works with eastern faiths. And being a strong atheist is almost as illogical as being a strong theist.
Mind and Brain are two different things and in fact brain and physical objects don't exist independent of this metaphysical mind. So I am a sort of Idealist. That's what I mean when I talk of Substance dualism. This is the view of eastern religions.
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