If I'm "Christian"...

[jasonwill2]

NOTE: I am not complaining about not being able to post in the Christian DIR, nor complaining about any incident either on this site, or any other site, about my ability to post Satanic stuff in a Christian area. Heck, I've never even joined a Christian forum before, I was merely trying to make a point that they wouldn't consider me "Christian", and am using that to support my argument that Theistic Satanism is NOT either "Reverse Christianity", or a "Christian Heresy".

Why won't Christians let me join their Church?
Why won't they let me preach my ideas on their forums?
Why can't I post in the Christian DIR?!??!

People like Peter H. Gilmore, High Priest of the Church of Satan, like to say that anyone that believes in a literal being called "Satan" is "Christian and Lunatic" and that were are not real Satanists but that we are "devil worshippers", despite admitting to not know our motivation to believing in a literal Satan or what we really believe.

Though in fairness he does think that all theists are crazy on some level. Deists he seems to be tolerant of:

Satanism: An interview with Church of Satan High Priest Peter Gilmore - Wikinews, the free news source

But even pagans of all people (well ok some are really hostile to Satanists) think I am Christian as well as some atheists and other groups. However I've seen most Satanists say that "Satan" is really just a being like Enki, Set, Azazel, Pan, or a number of other gods under a new name. Actually, it's probably more accurate to say that Satan is a huge cloberation of many pre-Christian gods.

Is Satanism a "Christian heresy"? Is Satanism "Abrahamic"?

Can't a Pantheistic and Hard Polytheistic Satanist get a break though!??! In my system, "Satan" is the most appropriate title known to man for many forms many of the manifestations of THE God/creator god, even if a "Christian Satan" may or may not exist among the thousands of lesser gods. "Satan" being the Hebrew title for an accuser or type of opposition working for Yahweh, I take the idea more generally as "Satan" being an actual force of opposition and a tester that puts forth challenges before me. But instead of "working for" any said entity, he is PART of that entity, and in many ways is the truest conscious form of it as in Ha-Satan, the actual extra-physical and supernatural entity. I hardly see that as Christian, although I admit that the thing Christians call "The Flesh" is accurately described as Satan, and I think that Satan in the form of The Flesh is also a manifestation of That Which Extends Within and Without existing in life. Heck, I don't even believe in Heaven or Hell. Why do only LaVeyans get to be the "true Satanists" when even THEY are just hedonistic anti-theists with diabolical symbolisms and metaphors? It seems that I have just as much right, if not more, to call myself a Satanist as they do. At least I believe that The Flesh is Satan in the Christian sense, even if I disgree on virutally everything else with them about Satan, such as being evil. Satan is everything and hence is neutral.

Spoiler for my metaphysics for anyone wanting to know what I'm going on about Satan and Ha-Satan and The Flesh being manifestations of That Which Extends Within and Without, it's a chart.:

Though even though a few Satanists are "duo-theologists" that accept some of the cosmology, they see Satan as really a good guy and Yahweh as some jerk who only wants control. A tyrant basically that will be defeated.

However today I found something, that while seeing Satan as the enemy of Yahweh, these guys do not represent anything resembling "reverse Christianity"

Theistic Satanist Cosmology « The International Temple of Satan

And to be honest, I have never ONCE met a Satanist who was a reverse Christian. This more seems to be pseudo Satanism than anything, hence why many Satanists negatively use "devil worshiper" as an offensive term for other Satanists they do not like or think are too "Christian".

=-=

Also if your curious as to why we use the figure "Satan" despite not believing in the Christian one I got a link for that too, however all the questions and answers on there are good.

FAQ about theistic ("traditional") Satanism in general

And lastly, Wikipedia:

Most of Theistic Satanism exists in relatively new models and ideologies, and many claiming to not be involved with Christianity at all.[4][5][6]

Paul Tuitean believes the idea of acts of “reverse Christianity” was created by the Inquisition,[19]

Theistic Satanists who base their faith on Christian ideas about Satan may be referred to as “Reverse Christians” by other Satanists, often in a pejorative fashion.[47] However, those labeled by some as “reverse Christians” may see their concept of Satan as not diluted or sanitized. They worship a stricter interpretation of Satan: that of the Satan featured in the Christian Bible.[48] This is not, however, shared by a majority of Theistic Satanists. Wiccans may consider most Satanism to be reverse Christianity,[49] and the head of the atheistic Church of Satan, Peter H. Gilmore, considers “devil worship” to be a Christian heresy, that is, a divergent form of Christianity.[50] The diversity of individual viewpoints within Theistic Satanism, while being a cause for intense debates within the religion, is also often seen as a reflection of Satan, who encourages individualism.[51]

Theistic Satanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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So really, Theistic Satanism by and large, no, I say virtually, has no one accepting the "reverse Christian" idea. Yet people all the time assume or think we are a Christian heresy, either to make them seem more legitimate, to use us as scapegoats, or just out of plain ignorance.

But if you want to argue that I'm a Christian Heresy, then you should also argue that I should be allowed to post in the Christian DIR (I'm joking of course, neither group would like that). I mean, after-all what is the Protestants to the Catholics, but heretics, and Mormons to the Protestants, but heretics, ect ect?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that Theistic Satanists are not reverse Christians or Christian Heresies. I've never even ran across any legit or credible "reverse Christian" or reverse Christian literature.

--

Um, also I am sorry if I sound scrambled right now, I totally should of wrote this out more but I've worked on this post for over an hour now.

[Polarbear]

Accusing Satanists of being Christians is silly, the religion is clearly so much more than that.

[jasonwill2]

Originally Posted by Polarbear

Accusing Satanists of being Christians is silly, the religion is clearly so much more than that.

I know, but it happens. However I like to think of how Christians would feel if as a Satanist I said that I was a Christian. They probably wouldn't like it, and I have noticed that most people who call Theistic Satanism a Christian Heresy are not Christians.

[jasonwill2]

OK FOR CLARIFICATION;

I am not complaining about not being able to post in the Christian DIR, nor complaining about any incident either on this site, or any other site, about my ability to post Satanic stuff in a Christian area. Heck, I've never even joined a Christian forum before, I was merely trying to make a point that they wouldn't consider me "Christian".

[PolyHedral]

Originally Posted by jasonwill2

Why won't they let me preach my ideas on their forums?

That's easy: because you're preaching.

[jasonwill2]

Originally Posted by PolyHedral

That's easy: because you're preaching.

I think the point still stands that the vast majority of Christians would object to labeling a Satanist as a "Christian", as even a Christian heretic is still a Christian... if not in name only.

Also a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ. A Satanist, even if "reverse Christian" does not, and hence isn't a Christian, making such labels that involve the word "Christian" completely useless as he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ.

edit: never mind I'm all here now, just took some grub.

[The Sum of Awe]

A creationist is a reverse atheist, why can't they preach their ideas on atheist forums, or why can't they post in the Nontheistic section.

[Sir Doom]

I really can't figure out what I'm supposed to be debating here.

Are you saying that Satanists are not Christian and so should not be given this label?

Or, are you saying that Satanists ARE Christian and so should be included in their religion-specific discussions?

[jasonwill2]

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

A creationist is a reverse atheist, why can't they preach their ideas on atheist forums, or why can't they post in the Nontheistic section.

That's exactly my point! Satanists are no more Christian than, say Hindus.

Originally Posted by Sir Doom

I really can't figure out what I'm supposed to be debating here.

Are you saying that Satanists are not Christian and so should not be given this label?

Or, are you saying that Satanists ARE Christian and so should be included in their religion-specific discussions?

I'm sorry, I was multi-tasking when making that post and the language part of my brain broke because of that (along with many other factors like lack of sleep and being hungry). However eating a high sugar and protein snack fixed me up and I can organize my thoughts clearly now.

My argument is that Theistic Satanists are NOT Christian, however The Church of Satan High Priest, Peter H. Gilmore, along with a number of other people, some pagan some not, think that we are:

David Shankbone: What is your relationship to Theistic Satanists?
Peter H. Gilmore: We don’t think they are Satanists. They are devil worshipers, as far as I’m concerned.

DS: Have you had much interaction with the theistic Satanists?
PG: No, I just have complete contempt for them and have no contact with them at all. If anybody does contact me and say they are a theistic Satanist we tell them to take a hike. [Laughs]. DS: Do you know what they think of you?
PG: I have no idea and I could not care. I consider it lunatic and it’s Christian. If you want to believe in an existing devil then you probably believe in an existing God and you’re really just a Christian heretic, you’re not a Satanist.

Satanism: An interview with Church of Satan High Priest Peter Gilmore - Wikinews, the free news source

This link, that has that conversation, was in the first post along with many other links. My point is that overwhelmingly that there are no Theistic Satanists that have anything resembling Christianity or Christian theology, hence how can we be Christians, reverse Christianity, or a Christian Heresy like so many argue that we are? My links were my sources backing up that assertion.

[idav]

Originally Posted by jasonwill2

So really, Theistic Satanism by and large, no, I say virtually, has no one accepting the "reverse Christian" idea. Yet people all the time assume or think we are a Christian heresy, either to make them seem more legitimate, to use us as scapegoats, or just out of plain ignorance.

But if you want to argue that I'm a Christian Heresy, then you should also argue that I should be allowed to post in the Christian DIR (I'm joking of course, neither group would like that). I mean, after-all what is the Protestants to the Catholics, but heretics, and Mormons to the Protestants, but heretics, ect ect?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that Theistic Satanists are not reverse Christians or Christian Heresies. I've never even ran across any legit or credible "reverse Christian" or reverse Christian literature.

--

Um, also I am sorry if I sound scrambled right now, I totally should of wrote this out more but I've worked on this post for over an hour now.

You wouldn't qualify as a christian heretic, just a heretic.

When introduced to the satanic bible I found it very polar opposite to the notions of christianity and theism but thats just when I was a christian at the time. I didn't realize atheists weren't really evil, lol.

edit: Just to add, it is possible to tie gnostic christianity to satanism so in that respect there would be some debate for being to post in the christian dir.