Abraham and Isaac

[funnerizer]

I have a hypothetical question for Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

You are a social worker, and you are meeting with a couple with one son and seeking to adopt another child. The father tells the following story:

One day about a month ago God spoke to me and commanded me to sacrifice my son. Without further discussion I told my son were going on a hike. Without knowing its purpose, my son carried the wood he was to be burned on, while I carried the knife he was to be slain with. When we got to the top of the mountain I let him in on the big surprise: "God commanded me to sacrifice you. You get to die for the Lord!" Unfortunately he fought back, so I had to bind him with rope. After placing my tied-up son on the pyre, fire and knife in hand, I raised my hand to stab my son.

Suddenly, God be good!, an angel spoke to me, saying "Don't kill your son! You have proved your worth through your willingness to kill your son." After freeing my son, I instead bound, stabbed, and burned a ram I found on the top of the mountain.

Would you feel more or less comfortable with the idea of letting this God-fearing and faithful father adopt a second child?

[Levite]

Originally Posted by funnerizer

I have a hypothetical question for Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

You are a social worker, and you are meeting with a couple with one son and seeking to adopt another child. The father tells the following story:

One day about a month ago God spoke to me and commanded me to sacrifice my son. Without further discussion I told my son were going on a hike. Without knowing its purpose, my son carried the wood he was to be burned on, while I carried the knife he was to be slain with. When we got to the top of the mountain I let him in on the big surprise: "God commanded me to sacrifice you. You get to die for the Lord!" Unfortunately he fought back, so I had to bind him with rope. After placing my tied-up son on the pyre, fire and knife in hand, I raised my hand to stab my son.

Suddenly, God be good!, an angel spoke to me, saying "Don't kill your son! You have proved your worth through your willingness to kill your son." After freeing my son, I instead bound, stabbed, and burned a ram I found on the top of the mountain.

Would you feel more or less comfortable with the idea of letting this God-fearing and faithful father adopt a second child?

the Akedah (the story of the Binding of Isaac) is widely considered to be the most difficult and troublesome story in all Torah, if not all the Tanakh. Probably more midrash has been written about it than about any other such narrative incident.

We have never had universal agreement about what the significance of the story is, what we are supposed to take away from it. Some have praised Abraham, some have pointedly criticized him, and everything in between.

My own favorite midrash about the Akedah tells that Abraham actually failed the test that God had set for him, because he had grown old and weak in mind: God had actually wanted Abraham to argue him out of the command to sacrifice Isaac. So God only stopped the test and reassured Abraham out of pity and compassion when it became clear that the old man really did not understand, and was going to go through with it. But it links the Akedah to the story in Exodus of God asking Moses to "stand aside" so that He can destroy the Jewish People, who had just committed the sin of the Golden Calf, and Moses of course refuses, and "persuades" God not to do it. And this midrash indicates that Moses thereby successfully passed the test that Abraham failed.

But the Jewish tradition is far from empty of criticism for Abraham in this matter, and far from free of distress in regard to the whole incident. It is something to be struggled with.

[funnerizer]

Originally Posted by Levite

the Akedah (the story of the Binding of Isaac) is widely considered to be the most difficult and troublesome story in all Torah, if not all the Tanakh. Probably more midrash has been written about it than about any other such narrative incident.

We have never had universal agreement about what the significance of the story is, what we are supposed to take away from it. Some have praised Abraham, some have pointedly criticized him, and everything in between.

My own favorite midrash about the Akedah tells that Abraham actually failed the test that God had set for him, because he had grown old and weak in mind: God had actually wanted Abraham to argue him out of the command to sacrifice Isaac. So God only stopped the test and reassured Abraham out of pity and compassion when it became clear that the old man really did not understand, and was going to go through with it. But it links the Akedah to the story in Exodus of God asking Moses to "stand aside" so that He can destroy the Jewish People, who had just committed the sin of the Golden Calf, and Moses of course refuses, and "persuades" God not to do it. And this midrash indicates that Moses thereby successfully passed the test that Abraham failed.

But the Jewish tradition is far from empty of criticism for Abraham in this matter, and far from free of distress in regard to the whole incident. It is something to be struggled with.

So you would be less comfortable handing over another kid?

A couple of side notes: what a jerk God must be--Abraham had already passed this test a mere four chapters earlier when he argued with God over the destruction of Sodom.

Also, this story is more troubling than God commanding Moses to kill all Midianite men, women, and male children, sparing only the virgin-girls (for God knows what purpose)? I suppose it's true what Stalin (never actually) said: "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

[Levite]

Originally Posted by funnerizer

So you would be less comfortable handing over another kid?

A couple of side notes: what a jerk God must be--Abraham had already passed this test a mere four chapters earlier when he argued with God over the destruction of Sodom.

Also, this story is more troubling than God commanding Moses to kill all Midianite men, women, and male children, sparing only the virgin-girls (for God knows what purpose)? I suppose it's true what Stalin (never actually) said: "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

Yes, the precise point that particular midrash makes is that Abraham passed this test once, and should have been able to pass it again.

And while the wars of conquest are an unfortunate incident in Israelite history, such was the way of the world back then. Every nation's history begins in blood, mostly spilled untimely.

I, like some authorities in Jewish Thought, believe that prophecy is imprecise, and sometimes the prophet misinterprets what God is trying to tell him or her, and makes presumptions and takes actions based on the cultural context in which they live; and I presume that God did not actually order any genocides, but what He did ask of the people was misunderstood by Moses or whoever the prophets were that passed along that message and/or recorded the events, who did what made sense to them based on their cultural contexts, presuming that they followed God's wishes.

[Jayhawker Soule]

... or that the story came later, conflating and exaggerating events and evolving lore that, while imbued with religious significance, was in essence etiological and/or political.

[Pastek]

Abraham, beside the fact that he believed in God, had also many proofs from Him

He wasn't just a simple believer like us as, he was truly conviced by God and the hereafter. That's why God ask him to sacrifice his son. It was a test, but God knows the future so no surprise that Abraham obeyed to God and of course no surprise that He didn't let him do it

2.260 And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." [ Allah ] said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but [I ask] only that my heart may be satisfied."

6.75 And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]

That's the Islamic view. He was convinced as he saw some miracles:
When he was saved by God when people wanted to throw him in the fire,
When he saw what happen to Lot's city
When he saw angels
When God protected his wife from the King
Plus the verses that i put above about the resurrection of the birds, and the hereafter

Can you then understand that he wasn't just a simple believer like the dad in your exemple ?
We believe that the son was Ismael not Isaac, but whatever

[funnerizer]

Originally Posted by Levite

Yes, the precise point that particular midrash makes is that Abraham passed this test once, and should have been able to pass it again.

And while the wars of conquest are an unfortunate incident in Israelite history, such was the way of the world back then. Every nation's history begins in blood, mostly spilled untimely.

I, like some authorities in Jewish Thought, believe that prophecy is imprecise, and sometimes the prophet misinterprets what God is trying to tell him or her, and makes presumptions and takes actions based on the cultural context in which they live; and I presume that God did not actually order any genocides, but what He did ask of the people was misunderstood by Moses or whoever the prophets were that passed along that message and/or recorded the events, who did what made sense to them based on their cultural contexts, presuming that they followed God's wishes.

I suppose that view makes reading the Hebrew scriptures less depressing, but it leads to the problem Dostoevsky had with atheism: all things are permissible. At least you recognize that what happened to the people the Israelites replaced in Palestine was a genocide.

Perhaps Abraham failed God's test because he misinterpreted the angel and he really was supposed to go through with it.

[funnerizer]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

... or that the story came later, conflating and exaggerating events and evolving lore that, while imbued with religious significance, was in essence etiological and/or political.

Originally Posted by Pastek

Abraham, beside the fact that he believed in God, had also many proofs from Him

He wasn't just a simple believer like us as, he was truly convinced by God and the hereafter. That's why God ask him to sacrifice his son. It was a test, but God knows the future so no surprise that Abraham obeyed to God and of course no surprise that He didn't let him do it

2.260 And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." [ Allah ] said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but [I ask] only that my heart may be satisfied."

6.75 And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]

That's the Islamic view. He was convinced as he saw some miracles:
When he was saved by God when people wanted to throw him in the fire,
When he saw what happen to Lot's city
When he saw angels
When God protected his wife from the King
Plus the verses that i put above about the resurrection of the birds, and the hereafter

Can you then understand that he wasn't just a simple believer like the dad in your example ?
We believe that the son was Ismael not Isaac, but whatever

The simple believer has all the proof he needs--the glorious Qur'an! Surely God giving us such a perfect and wonderful book is a greater sign than saving a spouse from a king.

I suppose what your saying is that anyone claiming to have seen what Abraham claimed to have seen is obviously crazy or evil. Except Abraham, he really did see all those things.

So Jews don't believe in the story, and Muslims think that we cannot be certain in God like Abraham. What do Christians think?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by funnerizer

The simple believer has all the proof he needs--

And this is true irrespective of the validity of the belief or the weight of countervailing evidence.

[Pastek]

Originally Posted by funnerizer

So Jews don't believe in the story, and Muslims think that we cannot be certain in God like Abraham. What do Christians think?

I never said that. I said that because of what he saw (miracles) he was more aware by the world and the hereafter.
He was choosen by God. And all the prophets are better than us because of a favor from God. They can do some things that we can't, because their faith is bigger and they are wiser than us.

I never said we are not certain of God, but that our faith is weaker that the prophets
So when you put as an exemple a "simple" dad vs Abraham, the choosen one, the friend of God, there's no comparison possible

If God show you the Hell and the Paradise, your faith will be bigger or not ?
If you speak to God, your faith will be bigger ?
So you can't compare, it's not the same level