God's responsibility

[idav]

Originally Posted by tempter

Unless God isn't the god he's claimed to be.

If I created a bunch of ants do I really have to be responsible for everything they do? They are nuts!! What if I promise to keep them out of the cupboard?

[Orias]

They're tricky ********, they will find a way if theres food.

[Thief]

God is not responsible.

This life is kinda like playing chess.
You make a move...then comes the consequence.
You stand in the right place at the right time....good for you.
Take a mis-step......too bad.

God gave Man dominion.
It is Man that you are dealing with.

In some way or another, the shallow thing someone else did yesterday....
is your burden today.

[Sir Doom]

Originally Posted by tempter

Judas is said to have been a key part in Jesus' death. Judas has been demonized as evil - a betrayer.
But it was Judas destiny to do what he did. If it wasn't him, then it was to be someone. This points to predestination. So why do so many people want to paint him as evil/bad/wrong when he was simply doing God's work in God's plan?
The responsibility should be God's, not Judas'.

So why does God get a "free pass" on responsibility? Granted, if God is God, no one could force him to take responsibility. But, that doesn't mean we should 'sweep it under the rug' and not see God for what God is.

Unless God isn't the god he's claimed to be.

Its interesting that you are ignoring Judas' opinion in the matter. He threw the money back to those that gave it to him and hung himself for what he did. That tells me he thought of himself as 'wrong' and I can't see any reason to argue with him about it. Its a bit late anyway, yeah?

Now, god's role in the whole thing is pretty dubious to begin with. I can't be sure what he intended to accomplish with the crucifixion at all. It seems a bit extreme. In light of that, however, Judas' betrayal seems like a fairly minor part in the whole affair. If god intended the crucifixion from the start, it makes little sense to single out such a small piece of it as 'evil'. If Judas is evil and currently burns in Hell for what he did, I can only imagine what the poor Romans who actually nailed Jesus up, stabbed him in the ribs, and left him to rot are currently experiencing. But again, if this is god's intention from the start, perhaps they DO get a pass and sit in paradise for following god's plan to the letter. How could we possibly know? It doesn't say anything about it in the Bible to my knowledge.

Basically, any Christian who says that Judas is in Hell is talking out of their sinful behind. Only god has the right to judge (by their own doctrine) and there is absolutely no indication as to how he judged Judas. The point is moot.

[Me Myself]

Originally Posted by InChrist

I don't believe it points to predestination. Judas' had the choice to behave the way he did and make the decisions he did. God knew his mind, heart, and evil intentions and used these to fulfill His plan, but that does not mean Judas had no choice in the matter. As you and said if it wasn't Judas, it could have and would have been someone else had Judas acted differently.

Predestination = your destiny is known beforehand, before you choose it so.

Omniscience= knowing past present and future

So, if there is an omniscient being, then everything is predestined to be how it is and will be.

so sure, it was Judas´s choice, but it was a predestined choice. God knew his choice before creating him, and knowing full well that he would have prefered never being born than the horriblesness of hell he would endure, he created him anyways.

supposedly, this is the act of a compassionate being?

[Me Myself]

Originally Posted by idav

If I created a bunch of ants do I really have to be responsible for everything they do? They are nuts!! What if I promise to keep them out of the cupboard?

Yes you are if you knew everything they qwould do before hand.

For example, if your ants eat a human being, and you knew full well they were going to even though you would (somehow) instruct them not to, then you are still responsible, because you knew the outcome of creating the ants and the actions they would do.

So the dead of the person is in your hands.

[tempter]

Originally Posted by idav

If I created a bunch of ants do I really have to be responsible for everything they do? They are nuts!! What if I promise to keep them out of the cupboard?

If you set them up for failure, knowing they would fail, then punish them for failing, then YES.
That would be wrong - passing on your responsibility to others.

[tempter]

Originally Posted by Sir Doom

Its interesting that you are ignoring Judas' opinion in the matter. He threw the money back to those that gave it to him and hung himself for what he did. That tells me he thought of himself as 'wrong' and I can't see any reason to argue with him about it. Its a bit late anyway, yeah?

Now, god's role in the whole thing is pretty dubious to begin with. I can't be sure what he intended to accomplish with the crucifixion at all. It seems a bit extreme. In light of that, however, Judas' betrayal seems like a fairly minor part in the whole affair. If god intended the crucifixion from the start, it makes little sense to single out such a small piece of it as 'evil'. If Judas is evil and currently burns in Hell for what he did, I can only imagine what the poor Romans who actually nailed Jesus up, stabbed him in the ribs, and left him to rot are currently experiencing. But again, if this is god's intention from the start, perhaps they DO get a pass and sit in paradise for following god's plan to the letter. How could we possibly know? It doesn't say anything about it in the Bible to my knowledge.

Basically, any Christian who says that Judas is in Hell is talking out of their sinful behind. Only god has the right to judge (by their own doctrine) and there is absolutely no indication as to how he judged Judas. The point is moot.

I'm not ignoring it at all - I'm embracing it. God knew what Judas would do or God's not God as He's claimed to be.

[Sir Doom]

Originally Posted by tempter

I'm not ignoring it at all - I'm embracing it. God knew what Judas would do or God's not God as He's claimed to be.

But here is the reality. Either Judas is wrong for his actions (by his own admission) and God has punished him accordingly (and is therefore wrong himself for being the ultimate cause), OR Judas was simply following God's plan and God has rewarded him for it (meaning they are both righteous). In either case, no one is capable of knowing the truth as God's judgment of Judas is completely absent from scripture.

We can of course, go with your suggestion that God is nothing like the God in the Bible, and really had no idea what Judas was going to do, but in that case, we still have to default to Judas. And Judas definitely thought of himself as wrong and now doesn't even have God to tell him differently.

The only thing we can really determine with the story of Judas is that Christians who suggest he is automatically burning in Hell for betraying Jesus simply don't have a realistic picture of their own God. But that's not anything new at all, is it?

[tempter]

Originally Posted by Sir Doom

But here is the reality. Either Judas is wrong for his actions (by his own admission) and God has punished him accordingly (and is therefore wrong himself for being the ultimate cause), OR Judas was simply following God's plan and God has rewarded him for it (meaning they are both righteous). In either case, no one is capable of knowing the truth as God's judgment of Judas is completely absent from scripture.

We can of course, go with your suggestion that God is nothing like the God in the Bible, and really had no idea what Judas was going to do, but in that case, we still have to default to Judas. And Judas definitely thought of himself as wrong and now doesn't even have God to tell him differently.

The only thing we can really determine with the story of Judas is that Christians who suggest he is automatically burning in Hell for betraying Jesus simply don't have a realistic picture of their own God. But that's not anything new at all, is it?

Not at all