Prayer / thanking God

[The Doors of Perception]

Let's take a look at prayer. Is there anything really supporting that prayer even works? I realize that there are many coincidences where you may pray for something and it comes true, like to pass a trigonometry exam. Well, in reality, did you not pass because of your hard work? I see people thanking God for surviving a horrible ordeal, but what did He do? How about thanking the police officers that got you out of a hostage situation or the firefighters that pulled you out of a burning building?

Now, think about this one: People may pray for things that come true. Healing someone with the flu, a pair of shoes going on sale, a 4.0 GPA, etc. Many of these come true (not necessarily through prayer). I am sure that many corrupt people pray for richness and many serial killers pray that they do not get caught, and many of those come true too. So, how does God choose who's prayers to answer? What makes him choose to answer a prayer to pass a test but not a prayer from a small child when their family is slaughtered in front of her before the killer sexually assaults her? How does he choose?

Last is the "miracles". Someone is in the hospital and their community prays for them, then they happen to get better. Can we accept this as a divine work rather than mental power? A person who knows they are being prayed for and believes that it is working can get better. Why do we need to say that God is involved?

So, to sum up:
1. Why give credit to God instead of where it is deserved. For example, if you get a 4.0 GPA thank yourself for the hard work rather than God who seems uninvolved. If you survive a fire, thank the firefighter who saved you, not God who seems uninvolved.

2. How does God choose what prayers to answer? Why will he do mundane things that are prayed for, yet won't end poverty or protect people from natural disasters? Or, if the case may be, why are religious people not praying for these things?

3. Do we need to add supernatural explanations to completely explainable things?

ADDITION:The sin of pride comes in here a lot, and it is quite useful. We can touch on that but I may start a whole other thread.

[Levite]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

Let's take a look at prayer. Is there anything really supporting that prayer even works? I realize that there are many coincidences where you may pray for something and it comes true, like to pass a trigonometry exam. Well, in reality, did you not pass because of your hard work? I see people thanking God for surviving a horrible ordeal, but what did He do? How about thanking the police officers that got you out of a hostage situation or the firefighters that pulled you out of a burning building?

Now, think about this one: People may pray for things that come true. Healing someone with the flu, a pair of shoes going on sale, a 4.0 GPA, etc. Many of these come true (not necessarily through prayer). I am sure that many corrupt people pray for richness and many serial killers pray that they do not get caught, and many of those come true too. So, how does God choose who's prayers to answer? What makes him choose to answer a prayer to pass a test but not a prayer from a small child when their family is slaughtered in front of her before the killer sexually assaults her? How does he choose?

Last is the "miracles". Someone is in the hospital and their community prays for them, then they happen to get better. Can we accept this as a divine work rather than mental power? A person who knows they are being prayed for and believes that it is working can get better. Why do we need to say that God is involved?

So, to sum up:
1. Why give credit to God instead of where it is deserved. For example, if you get a 4.0 GPA thank yourself for the hard work rather than God who seems uninvolved. If you survive a fire, thank the firefighter who saved you, not God who seems uninvolved.

2. How does God choose what prayers to answer? Why will he do mundane things that are prayed for, yet won't end poverty or protect people from natural disasters? Or, if the case may be, why are religious people not praying for these things?

3. Do we need to add supernatural explanations to completely explainable things?

ADDITION:The sin of pride comes in here a lot, and it is quite useful. We can touch on that but I may start a whole other thread.

First of all, it seems like you're presuming that prayer centers on asking God for stuff. And while I can't speak for other religions, in Judaism, it mostly doesn't. And when we do ask for stuff, it's usually fairly broad and general, unless it is something abstract (like forgiveness, or compassion). Most of our prayer centers on praising God for being the Creator, and for being our partner in the covenant of Torah; secondarily, in thanking Him for life and the things in it. Asking for stuff is a distant third.

However, on the occasions when we do-- either as a community or as individuals-- pray to God asking for something specific and concrete, we usually structure the prayer with an internal acknowledgement that God may have His own reasons for not being able to grant our request. We don't always know why some requests are apparently ones that God grants, and others are apparently ones that He doesn't; although we believe that He hears all prayers, and responds to all of them, even if the answers are not always heard and understood, even if the answer is only sympathy, and even if the answer is "no."

We also understand that just because we pray for a thing, and that thing then comes to pass, doesn't necessarily mean that it happened as a result of God granting our prayers-- any more than if it doesn't happen, it means that God had some "personal" reason for not granting the prayer. Usually if the thing we wanted comes to pass, we thank God for it anyhow, since we cannot know that it wasn't Him, and even if it wasn't, God is still the Creator, and therefore indirectly responsible for everything in the universe. Just like if bad things come to pass, we also acknowledge God's responsibility, even if we cannot be sure what happened was anything He did directly.

As for thanking God for things, we usually do this because God is ultimately responsible for everything. Occasionally, these things are quite direct: for example, we routinely thank God every morning for another day of life. Sometimes they are less direct. If, to use your example, I am rescued from danger by police officers or fire fighters, I may still thank God: He has created human beings courageous enough and concerned with justice and love of others enough to become police officers and fire fighters. That doesn't mean I shouldn't thank the police officers or fire fighters first: I should, because they were the proximate source of my help, and because it is human courtesy to thank other human beings first, whereas God is patient, and will not resent being thanked second, but rather will take joy in His creatures appreciating one another.

As for miracles, while we do believe that they sometimes happen, we also acknowledge that it can be hard to know what is and is not a miracle. And we also have a long-standing principle that we do not rely upon and expect miracles, even if we pray for them to happen. Our tradition generally acknowledges that some things do have supernatural causes, but most things don't, and therefore we are not to go out of our way looking for miraculous causes-- though we are also not to dismiss them if they present themselves clearly.

[The Doors of Perception]

Levite, off topic I was wondering if you would not mind sharing if you say the Shema each night before bed?

[F0uad]

Great answer levite some frubals.


Edited: Aw gave them already away.

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by Levite

First of all, it seems like you're presuming that prayer centers on asking God for stuff.

no, only when it does...

[confused453]

If God is everywhere, knows everything, wouldn't God already know (even before somebody prays) what's best for everything and every person, because he's all knowing and loving God?
In that case, could it be that if you pray, you're asking God to change your already planned fate?

[Levite]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

Levite, off topic I was wondering if you would not mind sharing if you say the Shema each night before bed?

Yeah, I usually do. Sometimes I miss a night, but I try to be consistent, and say it. Sometimes I don't say the whole bedtime Shema service (it's actually several prayers, in addition to Shema), only the Shema itself. But I say it.

[arthra]

"Let's take a look at prayer. Is there anything really supporting that prayer even works? I realize that there are many coincidences where you may pray for something and it comes true, ....."

That's probably comes from the idea that God is like a parent and will meet all your needs... and all you have to do is cry to Him..and that may work for some.

Prayer can also be seen as a conversation with God....so the soul can be in communion with God.

[Quintessence]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

1. Why give credit to God instead of where it is deserved. For example, if you get a 4.0 GPA thank yourself for the hard work rather than God who seems uninvolved. If you survive a fire, thank the firefighter who saved you, not God who seems uninvolved.

False dichotomy. There is no reason to not do both, and many who hold to a god-concept would disagree that their god-concept is undeserving of any credit, even where the god-concept is not actively present in the world. Even with something like deism, you only exist because the gods enabled it to be so. It is like saying "thank you" to your parents on a regular basis because without them - even if they're terrible parents - you never would have been born. For those of us who see the gods as constantly active and manifest in the world itself, the reasons to give credit to the gods are even more numerous. Again, this doesn't mean you don't give credit to people or to yourself. Neopaganism in particular definitely honors the power of individuals. Personal power and responsibility is what magic/spellcraft is all about for some of us, though the gods may assist in one way or another.

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

2. How does God choose what prayers to answer? Why will he do mundane things that are prayed for, yet won't end poverty or protect people from natural disasters? Or, if the case may be, why are religious people not praying for these things?

These questions are laden with assumptions from classical monotheism, and they do not apply very well to paths outside of that. Once you drop the assumption that the god-concept must be singular, transcendent, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent, these questions practically answer themselves. Different gods have different priorities. The gods have limits in terms of what they can do; they operate within certain domains and not others. The gods also extend to things humans happen to find undesirable. Poverty and natural "disasters" are as much of the gods as fluffy bunnies and rainbows. That humans expect - in some cases demand - the gods to give them special treatment (e.g., the universe must revolve around ME!) is arrogant. If you expect to have favor with a particular god, you need to earn it. And even then, they still have a habit of slapping you on your *** if you demonstrate the typical insolent hubris of my culture.

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

3. Do we need to add supernatural explanations to completely explainable things?

I find it interesting you assume it's a supernatural explanation. I suppose it is for some theologies, but not for my own. Preternatural maybe, but not supernatural. It also seems that you're overestimating the human ability to explain things. There are quite a few aspects of reality that are far from completely explainable to limited human perceptions. Even where we do explain things, our limitations still make it unwise to call these explanations THE TRUTH rather than a truth. If others want to use "supernatural" explanations, go for it. It doesn't bother me. You're responsible for your own beliefs as I'm responsible for mine.

[waitasec]

personally, thanking "whatever" is a good thing to do.

it's the requests that bug me.