In the beginning... wait, which beginning?

[Thief]

So you start out declaring 'myth'...and then make statements that you believe are true?

Approaching a belief system with disbelief is an uphill climb on ice.

[jasonwill2]

Originally Posted by Thief

So you start out declaring 'myth'...and then make statements that you believe are true?

Approaching a belief system with disbelief is an uphill climb on ice.

I have no idea if your talking to me or Doors of Perception

[The Doors of Perception]

Originally Posted by Thief

So you start out declaring 'myth'...and then make statements that you believe are true?

Approaching a belief system with disbelief is an uphill climb on ice.

Yeah, we're discussing mythology. But don't worry, when I invited you to join I knew you wouldn't be willing to contribute anything.

[Willamena]

I'll just pick one of the topics to discuss.

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

3. Further Mythology, Right / Left Path
Now, we all know about Eve, the Serpent, and the Tree of Knowledge. Well, after the first creation, God says that Adam and Lilith are in control over all things, they can eat anything that grows is the point worth making. There is nothing about an off limits tree until the second creation.

The myth of Lilith isn't a part of the Talmud--it's a medieval revisionist myth from a book called the Alphabet of Ben Sira. The myth that includes Eve and the tree is about the birth of conscious being; the symbolism of the story of Lilith is about which is to take precedence: the "above" (reality beyond) or the "below" (mind). I see in it essentially an early version of the view reinvented by Descartes as mind/body (Cartesian) duality. Lilith takes the role of "above" (seen by the way she flies away when she's angry).
The Story Of Lilith

Essentially, the story is claiming that what we know experientially is the reality. That is the man claiming, "I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one." He is trying to reverse the order of creation, and suceeding by the look of it.

[Thief]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I'll just pick one of the topics to discuss.


The myth of Lilith isn't a part of the Talmud--it's a medieval revisionist myth from a book called the Alphabet of Ben Sira. The myth that includes Eve and the tree is about the birth of conscious being; the symbolism of the story of Lilith is about which is to take precedence: the "above" (reality beyond) or the "below" (mind). I see in it essentially an early version of the view reinvented by Descartes as mind/body (Cartesian) duality. Lilith takes the role of "above" (seen by the way she flies away when she's angry).
The Story Of Lilith

Essentially, the story is claiming that what we know experientially is the reality. That is the man claiming, "I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one." He is trying to reverse the order of creation, and suceeding by the look of it.

Nice....so I would ask you...
The creation of Man is to purpose?

As I read Genesis, I see Man as a species....Day Six..
no names, no garden, no law, no restrictions.
'Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, dominate all things.'
We did.

Apparently, Man was not catching on to the scheme of things.
I suspect a certain amount of self awareness is required to survive your last breath.
Forming a fresh spirit is futile, if that spirit cannot stand from the dust.

So...the garden.
A Chosen specimen, ideal living conditions, interaction with the Spirit....
then surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation.....
and then release back into the environment.

Man is suppose to survive his death.
Spirit is required.

[The Doors of Perception]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I'll just pick one of the topics to discuss.


The myth of Lilith isn't a part of the Talmud--it's a medieval revisionist myth from a book called the Alphabet of Ben Sira. The myth that includes Eve and the tree is about the birth of conscious being; the symbolism of the story of Lilith is about which is to take precedence: the "above" (reality beyond) or the "below" (mind). I see in it essentially an early version of the view reinvented by Descartes as mind/body (Cartesian) duality. Lilith takes the role of "above" (seen by the way she flies away when she's angry).
The Story Of Lilith

Essentially, the story is claiming that what we know experientially is the reality. That is the man claiming, "I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one." He is trying to reverse the order of creation, and suceeding by the look of it.

I am aware that it is not part of the Talmud, it came much later on as means to explain the two creation stories. I am sure there are other myths that tried to do the same, but Samael and Lilith fits much better and is admittedly quite interesting. As you stated, the myth is about Lilith refusing to be unequal with Adam, leaving the Garden, meeting Samael, tricking Eve, impregnating her with Cain, and overall creating two paths to the same divinity. There is no doubt that old works are sexist, that is obviously outdated in today's world and Judaism is a religion that evolves.

I never saw the above / below symbolism directly, but it is quite interesting. As stated in the OP: "Now we have two paths to God; the Right (imperfect, submissive, shameful, weak, etc) and the Left (individual, reasonable, adversarial, etc)." This can be expanded to the the Right being blind faith, being reliant on salvation, etc. Taking this mythology, there would be two places to descend from: Adam and Eve whom sinned, became imperfect, and now have doomed their descendants; and Lilith and Samael who's descendents would be above those of Eve's, superior, self sustaining, etc.

Originally Posted by Thief

So...the garden.
A Chosen specimen, ideal living conditions, interaction with the Spirit....
then surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation.....
and then release back into the environment.

Man is suppose to survive his death.
Spirit is required.

This all seems irrelevent. There was no surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation, ect 50,000 years ago when humanity came to be (whether through creation or evolution, both are compatible). I think that eating from the tree is symbolically equal with rejecting the divinity, freedom, individuality, etc of our spirit. So, in accordance with the myth we are discussing, Samael and Lilith (and their descendents) remained perfect, eternal forces superior to humans (see above response).

[Plato]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

Two separate creations. Discuss?

Thoughts? I understand it is a rambling OP, filled with briefly explained ideas that are more complex in reality, but oh well.

Well there are some factual things we know about Genesis. We know it was 1st written down during the Judean exile in Babylon in the 500'sBC from earlier oral traditions going back to 2000BC or much further. So, 1.) The guys who wrote it down didn't witness the events they wrote about that happened 1500 years or more before their time, so Genesis can't be taken literally. 2.) It was written down in Chaldean/ Sumerian Babylon of the 500'sBC which had to influence it some. 3.) Clearly the authors were working with various oral records and 2 creation stories they felt they had to incorperate.

I'd say of the 2 creation stories the 1st one is the original Hebrew and thefore accurate one, because the 2nd one (with 'Adam', knowledge trees, serpents, mud and clay people and 'Eden') appears almost word for word in the Sumerian 'Epic of Gilgamesh' and the Sumerian creation story. Maybe the authors, prisoners in Chaldean-Sumerian Babylon 'had' to put the Sumerian story in after the Hebew one if they wanted to go on living as prisoners.
The Sumerian/ Babylonian Gilgamesh story around since 2800BC also has a guy in a garden, who wants knowledge so he can be like God, live forever and is tricked by a serpent. People made from clay etc. It's all Sumerian. 'Eden' in Genesis if you follow the instructions of Gen 2:10 is described to be where the shallow Persian Gulf is today. Sumeria was right at the head of the Persian Gulf and authors of Genesis wrote Genesis as prisoners in Sumerian Babylon!...I'd say the 2nd story is clearly just Babylonian contamination, the Babylonians made them put in.

As for the later twist and meaning put on Eve eating the knowledge apple etc. and the Christian 'Doctrine of Original Sin' I'd say that's junk too. A lot of people don't accept or believe in it. The idea and concept of 'Original Sin' (that humans are bad, dirty, evil, part of an evil earth, given over to sin at birth, needing to be 'saved') doesn't appear anywhere in the Old Testement or in the Gospels, nor the later instructions of God through Moses or in the teachings of Jesus. It was in fact created and made up in late 4th century Rome (380'sAD) 100's of years after Jesus and the Gospels, chiefly by Roman Augustine of Hippo a recent Christian convert with limited experience with Christianity or Judaism. I'd throw that out as Roman pagan contamination.

As to 'Lilith' the chick is not even in the Bible, so her story doesn't need to be thrown out as it was never 'in'. She's actually a part of the 'Midrash' Jewish quasi-religious writings of the 200'sAD where a bunch of rabbis sat around trying to make all parts of the Bible (like the 2 creation stories) 'fit'. Since there were 2 creation stories they figured 'Adam' must've had '2' wives and named the made up one Lilith, but she's not actually in there.


I'd say clearly the authors were working with 2

[The Doors of Perception]

People are no fun anymore. Fine, it's all fictional work stolen from other various fictional stories, so we cannot appreciate the tales. That's great, but if you're going that route I hope you don't hypocritically read fiction, go to the movies, watch television...

[Thief]

Originally Posted by The Doors of Perception

This all seems irrelevent. There was no surgery, cloning, genetic manipulation, ect 50,000 years ago when humanity came to be (whether through creation or evolution, both are compatible). I think that eating from the tree is symbolically equal with rejecting the divinity, freedom, individuality, etc of our spirit. So, in accordance with the myth we are discussing, Samael and Lilith (and their descendents) remained perfect, eternal forces superior to humans (see above response).

So now you want to call my reading of Genesis irrelevant?
How then to converse with your smug and superior intellect?

I find it MOST noteworthy that a story written thousands of years ago would have such events contained within it!

Now....do you want to talk about Genesis?...or just make denial?
(I might agree that evolution and creation are compatible).

That God does not interact with His creation?....would be...odd.

[The Doors of Perception]

Originally Posted by Thief

So now you want to call my reading of Genesis irrelevant?
How then to converse with your smug and superior intellect?

Yes, things that have come to be in the last hundred years are irrelevant to the writing of Genesis and later myths that stem out of it. How many times must I remind you childish remarks are not arguments and don't upset me?

I find it MOST noteworthy that a story written thousands of years ago would have such events contained within it!

No such thing happened. The story of Genesis has nothing even related go the science of today.

Now....do you want to talk about Genesis?...or just make denial?
(I might agree that evolution and creation are compatible).

I haven't made denial. I never got off topic, leave this B.S. in your own threads, friend.

That God does not interact with His creation?....would be...odd.

It seems unlikely that God (if one exists) interacts. There is absolutely no evidence of interaction from a divine being in an external sense.