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  #11  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:49 AM
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Personally I do not believe to be 'help'ed or saved or so forth.... and indeed it is a little insulting for you to suggest as much.

But to the point at hand, one of the words you mentioned in your alternative explanation to creation by god is 'always', now always is a term that relates to time and time is among the least understood of all phenomenon in existence and this proves essential in discussions about the origin of existence and therefore many of the 'proofs' of the existence of some god.

Your argument essentially rests upon a certain view of the nature of time, that it is a single continuum with a beginning and potentially an end. There are however other models of time, personally I ascribe to a model of time with a beginning, simply because I find that more appealing to me and research into the nature of time is very inconclusive.


If at any stage there was 'nothing' in existence, then either our understanding of the laws surrounding the preservation of energy and matter are incorrect or else there was something that surpassed those laws.

However, there is NOTHING to suggest that there has ever been a stage where 'nothing' existed (no the big bang does not support this position and does not explain where all matter comes from, but rather how the matter/energy that does exist changed its configuration from one format modelled on our assumptions of the laws of nature to its current perceived configuration).
Excellent, you affirming your disbelief that there was never a time of "nothing" , make the decision lean more toward its obvious there was a supernatural creator because energy exists but cannot be created.

As for the helping or saving, imagine if you think you know the truth and if others wont know, you wont be saved! ull obviously tell people.

That's for mostly christians, i'm sure i feel mroe satisfied then every atheist, and atheists are just so sad to me, i pity them for not being able to appreciate their existence more, especially the possibility of an after life sense energy never goes away.
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  #12  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:50 AM
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Excellent, you affirming your disbelief that there was never a time of "nothing" , make the decision lean more toward its obvious there was a supernatural creator because energy exists but cannot be created.
You donīt need a creator if energy cannot be created.

You could just say it was eternally there and has been always moving.
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:52 AM
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That's for mostly christians, i'm sure i feel mroe satisfied then every atheist, and atheists are just so sad to me, i pity them for not being able to appreciate their existence more, especially the possibility of an after life sense energy never goes away.
Again, Iīve met very appreciative atheists. The fact that you cannot appreciate life if you were an atheist doesnt mean nobody could. It is not a "logical" thing, appreciation is an EMOTION. That means it is not dependant on anything but you feeling it.

A lot of people Iīve heard apprciated life a lot more when they became atheists.
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:56 AM
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You donīt need a creator if energy cannot be created.

You could just say it was eternally there and has been always moving.
Did you read the atheist disaproving of "it was always there"?

And what part of supernatural dont you get? "I dont need a creator if energy cannot be created?"

We exist, so it was created, because we live, obviously a supernatural God created it.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TheReligionofFour View Post
Did you read the atheist disaproving of "it was always there"?

And what part of supernatural dont you get? "I dont need a creator if energy cannot be created?"
Even if we say supernatural cause it needs not be a sentient cause. It could just be a cause without sentience. I would believe you would need your creator to be sentient.

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Originally Posted by TheReligionofFour View Post
Did you read the atheist disaproving of "it was always there"?
One theist doesnīt represent all theists (I can very well see your arguments wouldnīt represent mine)

So one atheist doesnīt represent all atheists neither. Some may believe it was always there.


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Originally Posted by TheReligionofFour View Post
We exist, so it was created, obviously god created it.
Itīs not obvious. If nothing created God yet he was always there, then it is not a necessity for something to be "created" so it is always there. Actually, as you already saw, energy CANNOT be created naturally, so you could well believe that it has never been created and it was always there.

What you think of God as eternal, could be thought of energy as eternal.
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  #16  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:01 AM
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We exist, so it was created, because we live, obviously a supernatural God created it.
That's jumping the gun a significant amount there.

How do you know this universe is not the creation from a black hole, and that every universe is created that way, in a huge, endless cycle?

This may interest you: Every Black Hole Contains Another Universe?
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  #17  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:03 AM
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Excellent, you affirming your disbelief that there was never a time of "nothing" , make the decision lean more toward its obvious there was a supernatural creator because energy exists but cannot be created.
That does not logically follow. Moreover even if there WAS a time of nothing, all that would imply is that we do not have sufficient information to explain the origin of matter/energy and would suggest that our current understanding of the preservation of energy and matter is incorrect or else that the energy/matter originated from somewhere outside of our current understanding of space.

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As for the helping or saving, imagine if you think you know the truth and if others wont know, you wont be saved! ull obviously tell people.
Yes I know, and that is why I find the statement offensive. Personally I hold my own position to have significant merit; equally as much merit as any other philosophical position from a fideistic perspective and superior to any others (with the POSSIBLE exception of some types of agnosticism... though I am unsure of whether to call it weak agnosticism or strong agnosticism) that I have encountered from an ignostic perspective. However despite that I do not going around calling people blind or saying that they need 'saving' (or that their beliefs are inferior to my own, which is what saying someone needs to be 'saved', or 'ill pray for you' actually means when used in this context). Yes I believe that my position is superior in some respects because that it why I hold that position rather than another one - however that does not mean that I should go around saying "I think your position is inferior", perhaps at the most I might ask rather pointed questions about the nature of a person's assumptions, premises and reasoning, however value judgements have no place if you are truly trying to 'help' them as you claim.

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Originally Posted by TheReligionofFour View Post
That's for mostly christians, i'm sure i feel mroe satisfied then every atheist, and atheists are just so sad to me, i pity them for not being able to appreciate their existence more, especially the possibility of an after life sense energy never goes away.
You may pity them, however that does not mean that they perceive that they are 'sad' nor that they do not appreciate their existence every bit as much as (or maybe even more than) you. And for many atheists the lack of a life after death is reassuring rather than disconcerting; and it encourages many to make the most out of this life rather than hanging their hopes on the possibility of another life later down the track.

Last edited by InformedIgnorance; 01-11-2012 at 02:17 AM.. Reason: corrected myself on the agnosticism and expanded my position
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:07 AM
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Energy cannot be created or destroyed, yet we are here, so how did that happen you think?

1-God
2-It was always there.
I vote 1. God. The problem is, what is God and how did he/she/it make it happen? One could believe that God is behind it all and be a pantheist, which is completely different from, say, the mainstream Christian concept.

Is God some powerful spirit in a corner of the universe who thinks about creation and makes it happen? Is God an intelligence that expands itself to form the universe? Is God really a number of powerful entities working together to create and manage the universe? Is God even intelligent, or is God that very energy that can never be created or destroyed?


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How do we help them?
I don't think it's our place to 'help' them. We find our own paths in life through our unique personal experiences. By interfering, we place a lot of responsibility in our own hands.
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  #19  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:35 AM
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Energy cannot be created or destroyed,....
So, energy could not have been created. It was around in some form or the other? Is that what you mean? Do you call energy god? If so, a lump of coal can be called god.
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.... yet we are here, so how did that happen you think?
What anyone thinks is not important. It's what can be demonstrated which is important.
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1-God
2-It was always there.
What about all the other possibilities you don't mention? For example, fairies could have done it.
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So it was either God or the universe was always there,....
Or fairies or aliens or garden gnomes or the Universe was not always there. Lots of possibilities. The fact that the Universe not always being there in it's current form is what all the empirical, verifiable evidence indicate.
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....which do you think it is, why, and is there proof behind it .
You can't even "proof" that you exist. That's why science is so wonderful. It works on evidence, not proof. And it works very well, considering that you use the internet.
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This will settle, many, many things.
Is that what you believe? Your beliefs are not important. it's what you can demonstrate with empirical, verifiable evidence that's important.
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On a side note: I think it was God, according to my lfie experiences,....
Are you sure it wasn't the FSM, as other people have life experiences with the FSM? Others have life experiences with aliens who anally probe them. Others have experiences with gods other than the one you chose to believe in.
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...but I'm sure that atheists who have not had any experiences with God may lead them to think otherwise
Many people who've had experiences with Allah beg to differ. They have lots of experiences with Allah.
Anyway, you've got it wrong. Atheists don't believe in the existence of any god or gods or anything similar. That's it. Nothing to do with "energy" or "Universe" or anything like that. Atheists simply don't believe all the stories theists tell about their gods. That's it.
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How do we help them?
You might want to start helping yourself in what the word "atheist" means. Anyway, why do you want to help people who don't need any help and can help themselves if needed? I find it terribly insulting for you telling me that I need help. Does it make you feel special when you do it?

Seeing that we are on insults, why don't you provide empirical, verifiable evidence for the existence of your particular chosen god?

With this, I don't mean "arguments" like the origin of energy of the Universe or anything like that. The reason is that, even if a god or gods or someting "created" energy or the Universe or whatever (I don't believe it, but it's for the sake of the argument), that god or gods could have died or lost interest in "creation" in the meantime. A dead god or gods or dieties are of no use.

Provide empirical, verifiable evidence that your particular god or gods or chosen diety exists, today.

Last edited by Krok; 01-11-2012 at 02:58 AM.. Reason: Added paragraphs
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  #20  
Old 01-11-2012, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TheReligionofFour View Post
As for the helping or saving, imagine if you think you know the truth and if others wont know, you wont be saved! ull obviously tell people.

That's for mostly christians, i'm sure i feel mroe satisfied then every atheist, and atheists are just so sad to me, i pity them for not being able to appreciate their existence more, especially the possibility of an after life sense energy never goes away.
What reason do you have to believe this?

You assume far too much, you have no clue how satisfied other people are or aren't unless they specifically tell you.

Um, you must not understand the atheist position. You see we appreciate every moment in our lives "because" we believe in no afterlife. In other words, this is all we got so we make the best of it. Also energy doesn't = a soul so I have no idea why you are relating energy with an afterlife.
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