Muslims: Keeping the wife "in line"

[Godobeyer]

Originally Posted by Revoltingest

I look forward to her participation.
(I'll be nice....within my limitations.)

Btw, congrats to both of you!

she is beginner in forum and english language , I hope she will try to explain her opinion , (about this issue ) soon.

[Looncall]

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

brother Debater Slayer , I guess you are the only one who understand my point here ,
can you please intervene to resume my opinion which supported by "hadith and verse " to them .
and resume their opinion to me even in arabic .
I am not sure that they understand me as you did privatly , and i am not sure that i understand them .

I would like to ask you again: do you feel you have to agree with everything in your scriptures?

I would like to understand whether you have any independent moral existance of your own.

I find your way of discussing things with quotations from scripture very puzzling.

[ssainhu]

Originally Posted by Looncall

I would like to ask you again: do you feel you have to agree with everything in your scriptures?

IMO you have to realize what those scriptures actually mean and whether they hold true to the overall spirit of a religion and relationship between people and God.

I would like to understand whether you have any independent moral existance of your own.

IMO yes. Even if you do believe as Godobeyer does, you have the choice to either go along with it or reject it. That's why God gave us brains.

I find your way of discussing things with quotations from scripture very puzzling.

So do I, trust me.

[Godobeyer]

Originally Posted by ssainhu

I think it means something else. The end.

what you mean sister ? you mean i mean somothing else ?

[Godobeyer]

Originally Posted by Looncall

I would like to ask you again: do you feel you have to agree with everything in your scriptures?

very intersting question ,let me ask you this question first , should i disagree with it or agree with it ?
the Islam is base on Quran , if we disgree with any of it , that mean we disgree god , no ?

I would like to understand whether you have any independent moral existance of your own.

I did not get this claim .

I find your way of discussing things with quotations from scripture very puzzling.

it's not puzzle or challenge , it's God law (Fatwa and explaination ) of Quran verse and Hadiths ,
if it's already misuderstand by some muslims and how about non-muslims too .

[Godobeyer]

I found very important Hadith about the women whom disobey their husbands
most the hell are from the women prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said !!!!!

{ حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ أَبِى مَرْيَمَ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِى زَيْدٌ - هُوَابْنُ أَسْلَمَ - عَنْ عِيَاضِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ أَبِى سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِىِّ قَالَ خَرَجَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِى أَضْحًى - أَوْ فِطْرٍ - إِلَى الْمُصَلَّى، فَمَرَّ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعْشَرَ النِّسَاءِ تَصَدَّقْنَ، فَإِنِّى أُرِيتُكُنَّ أَكْثَرَ أَهْلِ النَّارِ . فَقُلْنَ وَبِمَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ تُكْثِرْنَ اللَّعْنَ، وَتَكْفُرْنَ الْعَشِيرَ، مَا رَأَيْتُ مِنْ نَاقِصَاتِ عَقْلٍ وَدِينٍ أَذْهَبَ لِلُبِّ الرَّجُلِ الْحَازِمِ مِنْ إِحْدَاكُنَّ . قُلْنَ وَمَا نُقْصَانُ دِينِنَا وَعَقْلِنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ أَلَيْسَ شَهَادَةُ الْمَرْأَةِ مِثْلَ نِصْفِ شَهَادَةِ الرَّجُلِ . قُلْنَ بَلَى. قَالَ فَذَلِكَ مِنْ نُقْصَانِ عَقْلِهَا، أَلَيْسَ إِذَا حَاضَتْ لَمْ تُصَلِّ وَلَمْ تَصُمْ . قُلْنَ بَلَى. قَالَ فَذَلِكَ مِنْ نُقْصَانِ دِينِهَا . }

تم ترجمة هذا الحديث للغات التالية


Narated By Abu Said Al-Khudri : Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, " O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women) . " They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, " You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you . " The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, " Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man ? " They replied in the affirmative. He said, " This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses ? " The women replied in the affirmative. He said, " This is the deficiency in her religion . "

Sahih al-Bukhary, The Book of Menses, Hadith Number:305, Narrated by: Sa'd Ibn-Malik

from
..........

[Badran]

Originally Posted by bigbadgirl

Why are you frustrated?

Something along the lines of what Draka explained.

[Badran]

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

I wonder what is ******** ,

Its the straight forward way of saying that you're advice and comments on my posts are pretty much worthless, since you've never read them properly to begin with. Its like giving me advice about what to do with my life when you weren't actually listening while i was explaining my problems.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

any way i ask god to forgive him , it's he mean it .

I assume you thought i was cursing you? I wasn't. I was expressing my disgust with what you were responding with to those who disagree with you (acting like you're speaking on behalf of god or merely saying it like it is written and supposedly trying to point that out to the rest of us so that we don't sin by going against god).

Its disgusting because you never read what was written appropriately like i said, and also because i tend to think that when someone repeatedly does that its more of a compensation for poor debating and reasoning skills rather than sincere advice.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

honestly if i instead of you i will be sorry that my post was against what Allah said in Quran.استغفر الله

If i were you i'd be more worried about myself. Like i said, i'm not interested in hearing your advice, and you're in no position to be giving any to begin with (because you didn't read my posts).

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

you don't tell me you are against the slave of the wife , you tell me you are against the submission .

Submission to humans, and particularly in the fashion you're describing is slavery, pure and simple. You can dance around that all day long and that won't change it.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

I read your claims it's just an opinion (had no reference ),

So is your opinion, as shocking as that may be to you. If you read my previous posts properly you might understand how.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

and almost ambiguous to me (not clear)

The reason for that is very simple. Just read and things will be very clear.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

if i choice to follow ,if i should follow your opinion or Quran and Hadiths ?
of course i will follow what God and Muhammad said .

I wasn't trying to influence your opinion when i started addressing your posts to begin with. Nobody asked you to follow my opinion, i was simply trying to help you with figuring out how come some Muslims were disagreeing with you. I offered you explanations as to why and how there are differing views regarding this matter, and all you did in return is misrepresent my position and offer posts that to me can only be described as pathetic.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

but if it's just misudernstand we each other , that's other problem , because I am talking with Debater and he told me that he with submission but in condition that He did not slave her . and I am compeletly agree with him.

I won't speak on anybody's behalf, but my impression from these threads is that you both have very differing views regarding the matter. He, it seems simply believes in the idea of some form of authority figure in the house. You on the other hand are espousing much more than that.

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

submission in Islam never mean slavery , submission it's just kind of respect to husband .

Nothing related to what you said has anything remotely connected with respect. You're talking about the relation between a slave and her owner, or a tyrant and his subject, who has to put up with it and will be compensated for in the afterlife.

[ssainhu]

Oh.My.Dear.God.

[Badran]

Originally Posted by Godobeyer

my question now is :
Me and Debater are with this explaination .that cleary with the obedience of the wife to her husband .
are Badran , Ssainu with or against ?

I'm this:

Against this explanation.

Got it?

Let me you give one sample as to why i'm against it (and attempt one last time to explain the difference between disagreeing with the quran and disagreeing with interpretations of it):

1- Allaah stated this reason in the Quran: {… because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other,…}. This excellence is due to the man being of a sound reasoning more than the woman, having a better insight and better in conducting affairs than a woman when facing emergencies and missions. It is for such reasons that Allaah assigned Prophecy, Caliphate, Jihaad (fighting in Allaah's Cause) and earning the daily bread to men.

That, Godabeyer, is crap. Nothing more and nothing less.

On top of it being silly, and demonstrably false, its also a conclusion, or attempt at understanding. So, me disagreeing with it is not the same as me disagreeing with the quran, get it?

He's assuming/concluding/attempting to find explanations as to why, so while his efforts are appreciated, i want no part of it. Alright?

i accept other explanations. Other possible interpretations.