Origin of Morality (Jesus, punishment, Creator, Moses, virgin)

[Lightkeeper]

Originally Posted by pah

Ah, a recursive search for good. But wouldn't that search be satisfied when an agent, neither good nor evil, declares good.

But it is an interseting idea you introduce.

I am commenting on your statement. I didn't introduce the idea.

[InHisService]

How could good evil or preexist God? there is no one there to act good or evil.
God is good, he ALLOWS free will - that is where the evil comes from. people and/or angels chose to leave His will.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by InHisService

How could good evil or preexist God? there is no one there to act good or evil.
God is good, he ALLOWS free will - that is where the evil comes from. people and/or angels chose to leave His will.

We certainly think that genocide and infanticide is evil. When God commanded the death of all of some of the neighboring tribes of the "chosen", "free will" was confined to obeying or disobeying God. If you exercised "free will" in not obeying the command to annihilate a people, weren't you doing good?

When God acted alone, as in the case of the great flood, which killed without mercy all living things except that which was on the ark, was God exercising his "free will" or was he just plain evil?

[dan]

Free will in and of itself is intrinsically good, but it can be excercised for evil. "Which killed without mercy"? Do you have the right to say that the inhabitants were not offered mercy? Noah spent 200 years building the ark and warning people and no one listened. God is all-merciful, and I think the idea that death is evil is another fallacy that you take for granted. Death is just another part of life, and everyone must syffer it.

Free will does not mean that any choice is good, it means that you will not be forced to do good. You will be shown the difference and you have the right to make the choice.

You seem to make a ton of assumptions about God's motivations as you mercilessly trash His will.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by dan

Free will in and of itself is intrinsically good, but it can be excercised for evil. "Which killed without mercy"? Do you have the right to say that the inhabitants were not offered mercy?

Please show in biblical verse where God offered "mercy".

Originally Posted by Dan

Noah spent 200 years building the ark and warning people and no one listened.

I do not find 200 hundred years as part of Genesis 6 but I do find in verse 18 where God make a covenant with Noah alone. Hehehe, the others were "written off" and there was no need to "preach" to them.

According to Genesis 7:6 Noah was 600 years old (incredible in light of Genesis 6:3 which limited man's life span to 120 years) when the "rains" came.
When Noah was 500 years old, he sired three sons (Genesis 5:32) Within those 100 years, God spoke to Noah regarding the ark. In Genesis 6:18, God spoke to Noah about his sons, his wife and the wives of his sons.

Where, Dan, did you get this bit of trivia regardin 200 years and "warning" people. It seems to go against the Bible.

Originally Posted by Dan

God is all-merciful, and I think the idea that death is evil is another fallacy that you take for granted. Death is just another part of life, and everyone must syffer it.

This barbaric god offered no mercy to those killed in the flood, nor to any of the tribes he commanded to be annhilated (there was also an instance where some of the "chosen" were killed on orders - without mercy). I would be pleased if you could quote chapter and verse where God offered mercy to any of these people before killing them.

Originally Posted by Dan

Free will does not mean that any choice is good, it means that you will not be forced to do good. You will be shown the difference and you have the right to make the choice.

You miss the circimatance of what I said. God commanded - the free will was to obey God or not - the choice of disobeying God seems the more "good".

Originally Posted by Dan

You seem to make a ton of assumptions about God's motivations as you mercilessly trash His will.

Not an assumption, Dan, but a logical statement from the facts of a literal Bible.

[trishtrish10]

i think the key to right and wrong is our free-will, which God gave us and which he also has as we are made in his image. just like God we have the freedom to sin unless he interfers with his supernatural powers. also God created time which will end one day. he was begotten not made. he always was, is and always will be just like us. that's called eschatology. everything has happened, called deja vu or already seen. because God is pure goodness, if we make it to heaven we will also be pure goodness. God made us in his image because he didn't want robots. we don't have to love, it's our choice and God knows what we will choose. sometimes he tests us, and is made happy when we choose to do good or not do bad. sure we are weak compared to him, but it is in our weakness that he is made strong.

[dan]

1) God showed mercy to the town Jonah was hoping to see thrashed. Maybe you should read that one over again. He also showed mercy to the Hebrews in Exodus; to the harlot in Josh. 6; I could point out a hundred more, but it's pointless, you get the picture.

2) Genesis 6:3 does not limit man to 120 years. This is a common misconception made by people who don't understand the scriptures. It means that in 120 years from that date the flood would wipe out humanity. "Methuselah" means "He dieth and He sendeth out." The flood came in the year he died. He was righteous, y'know, God wasn't gonna kill him, so He said that when Methuselah died the floods would come, and He knew it was gonna be 120 years. Many people have lived beyond 120 years since then. Are we to believe God's decree was just overlooked? This 120 years, when "the longsuffering of God waited," was the time period when Noah preached and tried to save other people; but they all laughed at him. I rounded up to two hundred for some reason. It should be 120.

3) I'll give you just one. When Ai defeated the Israelites God told them it was because someone had taken the "accursed thing." God showed Joshua who it was but Joshua narrowed down the search slowly in an effort to give Achan a chance to come forward before he was rooted out. This was a way in which the Lord offered mercy but it was denied. Achan was stoned and burned with His family and all his possessions.

4) But it's not "the more good." If you have faith then you know obeying God is the only "good" choice you can make. Your arrogance would have gotten you stoned had you lived in the times of the ancient Israelites.

5) You don't understand the Bible at all. You only think you understand what other incompetent scholars breastfeed you.

[Scott1]

Great post Dan!

Just remember that it's hard for pah to read Scripture without the Holy Spirit to guide him/her......

Peace,
Scott

[dan]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[trishtrish10]

scott, i've read many of ure posts and u r brilliant.
as u know, a monk many centuries after Christ derrived our present calendar of which a year is based upon. it's called the Gregorian calendar. in ancient times years were much shorter. that's why many people lived what we thought were longer lives, which in fact were much shorter than today's average due to disease. 40-50 years was the average compared to the present 75 for americans(u.s.)

i was bored tonight so decided to get on the internet.