Is there anything God can not do? - Page 14

Acim · #**131** 08-11-2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benhamine

I chuckled at this line: How irresponsible of God.

As you mentioned though there is something he CAN'T do. This is why this disproves at least an omnipotent God.

In linear sense, and if being short sighted. In same sense of "disproves," then arguably this alone would prove God is omniscient. He knows what he can't do.

Part of this is we are talking about "doing." And doing, unlike being, is entirely linear. It also brings to the table, as if this is 'entirely logical' ideas of shape and form. That a rock is inherently logical, as is lifting.

We also, I think, tend to imagine eternity in linear way. That it is a really long time. Like, maybe 'a long time ago' in eternity, things were done in this way, but 'nowadays' they are done this other way.

So, with the faulty logic all combined, it is conceivable that God created a rock just 8 seconds ago that not even God could lift. There he did it. And yes, we here have provided proof that God Herself couldn't ever have conceived of, which concludes God is therefore not really really omnipotent. Oh well God. You lose.

But then 3 seconds later in eternity, God has a realization, let's call it knowledge, and says now I see how that rock could be lifted. Haven't done it yet, because, well humanity has proven I'm impotent, but I have knowledge on how to do so.

Then somewhere in neighborhood of 800 quintillion years later, about 799.99999999999 quintillion years after humanity has ceased to exist, God goes ahead and lifts that rock up. For the fun of it. Oh, but where are the humans around to applaud God for doing the impossible? To go back and renege on their silly little claim that God is impotent? Hmmm, if they were only still around so they could proclaim, "see! see! I told you God couldn't create such rock. I was right! I knew it. Ha ha God, you lose!"

DinChild · #**132** 08-12-2011, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

In linear sense, and if being short sighted. In same sense of "disproves," then arguably this alone would prove God is omniscient. He knows what he can't do.

Like I mentioned in another thread, proving God is omniscient presents its own series of logical paradoxi (speaking specifically of free will). I don't know if that's the road you really want to be walking down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

Part of this is we are talking about "doing." And doing, unlike being, is entirely linear. It also brings to the table, as if this is 'entirely logical' ideas of shape and form. That a rock is inherently logical, as is lifting.

We also, I think, tend to imagine eternity in linear way. That it is a really long time. Like, maybe 'a long time ago' in eternity, things were done in this way, but 'nowadays' they are done this other way.

Then you give the free thinkers of this forum (at the very least) all the intellectual potential of a fourth grader. Most people, who have had a basic high school education, are aware that infinity (eternity) isn't linear. It's, in fact, the complete absence of time. So before you decide to speak down to your readers, consider who you're speaking to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

So, with the faulty logic all combined, it is conceivable that God created a rock just 8 seconds ago that not even God could lift. There he did it. And yes, we here have provided proof that God Herself couldn't ever have conceived of, which concludes God is therefore not really really omnipotent. Oh well God. You lose.

...and you continue for some reason...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

But then 3 seconds later in eternity, God has a realization, let's call it knowledge, and says now I see how that rock could be lifted. Haven't done it yet, because, well humanity has proven I'm impotent, but I have knowledge on how to do so.

I think what you're assuming here is God TRYING to do something based on a drunk fraternity dare. It's not exactly like God attempted it, time passed, and things were learned. We're not stupid. Inquiring whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a rhetorical, logic paradox. Time doesn't factor because God exists outside of time. This is already established, so thanks for wasting our time.

The fact is, no matter how omnipotent, a being cannot create something more powerful than itself. THAT is the fallacy of OMNIPOTENCE. You CANNOT create EVERYTHING. I don't know how more plainly we can illustrate this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

Then somewhere in theneighborhood of 800 quintillion years later, about 799.99999999999 quintillion years after humanity has ceased to exist, God goes ahead and lifts that rock up. For the fun of it. Oh, but where are the humans around to applaud God for doing the impossible? To go back and renege on their silly little claim that God is impotent? Hmmm, if they were only still around so they could proclaim, "see! see! I told you God couldn't create such rock. I was right! I knew it. Ha ha God, you lose!"

I love how you attempt to use TIME to prove a point you initially claimed was irrelevant BECAUSE of TIME. From here on out, everything you say should bear the weight of a disclaimer.

Benhamine · #**133** 08-12-2011, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

In linear sense, and if being short sighted. In same sense of "disproves," then arguably this alone would prove God is omniscient. He knows what he can't do.

Part of this is we are talking about "doing." And doing, unlike being, is entirely linear. It also brings to the table, as if this is 'entirely logical' ideas of shape and form. That a rock is inherently logical, as is lifting.

We also, I think, tend to imagine eternity in linear way. That it is a really long time. Like, maybe 'a long time ago' in eternity, things were done in this way, but 'nowadays' they are done this other way.

So, with the faulty logic all combined, it is conceivable that God created a rock just 8 seconds ago that not even God could lift. There he did it. And yes, we here have provided proof that God Herself couldn't ever have conceived of, which concludes God is therefore not really really omnipotent. Oh well God. You lose.

But then 3 seconds later in eternity, God has a realization, let's call it knowledge, and says now I see how that rock could be lifted. Haven't done it yet, because, well humanity has proven I'm impotent, but I have knowledge on how to do so.

Then somewhere in neighborhood of 800 quintillion years later, about 799.99999999999 quintillion years after humanity has ceased to exist, God goes ahead and lifts that rock up. For the fun of it. Oh, but where are the humans around to applaud God for doing the impossible? To go back and renege on their silly little claim that God is impotent? Hmmm, if they were only still around so they could proclaim, "see! see! I told you God couldn't create such rock. I was right! I knew it. Ha ha God, you lose!"

LOL well I wouldn't say that it proved omniscience just because it knows it can't do something. That's just one piece of knowledge, and it's not a matter of me feeling right or better than God. It's simply a proof against an omnipotent God. If it can lift it, it didn't create a rock it can't lift. Seems pretty cut and dry to me

-Benhamine

Kilgore Trout · #**134** 08-12-2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaddoe

Can God create a rock so heavy that he can not lift it?

If there is a god, one thing I'm sure he can do is spot silly semantical games when he sees them.

Acim · #**135** 08-12-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

Like I mentioned in another thread, proving God is omniscient presents its own series of logical paradoxi (speaking specifically of free will). I don't know if that's the road you really want to be walking down.

I'm willing.

I'll be interested in how you understand free Will.

Quote:

...and you continue for some reason...

...to perpetuate the mockery...

Quote:

I think what you're assuming here is God TRYING to do something based on a drunk fraternity dare.

Close. Mockery is how I would phrase it.

Quote:

It's not exactly like God attempted it, time passed, and things were learned. We're not stupid. Inquiring whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a rhetorical, logic paradox. Time doesn't factor because God exists outside of time. This is already established, so thanks for wasting our time.

And God exists outside of "rock." This is already established, so thanks for wasting time with idiotic question.

Quote:

The fact is, no matter how omnipotent, a being cannot create something more powerful than itself. THAT is the fallacy of OMNIPOTENCE.

There is nothing else. That is the fallacy of ignorance.

Quote:

You CANNOT create EVERYTHING. I don't know how more plainly we can illustrate this.

Yes, EVERYTHING can be created.

Nothing unreal can exist.

DinChild · #**136** 08-13-2011, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

Like I mentioned in another thread, proving God is omniscient presents its own series of logical paradoxi (speaking specifically of free will). I don't know if that's the road you really want to be walking down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

I'm willing.

I'll be interested in how you understand free Will.

How I understand it? Is it not defined? It's the freedom of independent choice; voluntary decision, and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces. My original statement included the omniscience of God as an immediate violation of the faculty of free will, in that whatever choice we make, it's been writ. Just because we don't know it, doesn't make it free will. Those who believe in God accept his omniscience, and therefore forfeit free will. It's a fairly simple connection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

...and you continue for some reason...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

...to perpetuate the mockery...

Oh, trust me. It wasn't lost on me. You clever wordsmith, you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

It's not exactly like God attempted it, time passed, and things were learned. We're not stupid. Inquiring whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a rhetorical, logic paradox. Time doesn't factor because God exists outside of time. This is already established, so thanks for wasting our time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

And God exists outside of "rock." This is already established, so thanks for wasting time with idiotic question.

Did I NOT mention God existed outside of Time? Would that not imply he exists outside of "rock?" Mockery or not, YOU wasted time by posting whatever drivel about God "realizing" he could lift said rock. Suspending, for the moment, that God cannot second-guess himself (even though the Bible proves this to be a falsehood,) I'm at a loss as to what point you're trying to pass as proof for your argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

The fact is, no matter how omnipotent, a being cannot create something more powerful than itself. THAT is the fallacy of OMNIPOTENCE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

There is nothing else. That is the fallacy of ignorance.

Nice try on the word twist. But you're dodging the issue. Omnipotence cannot create everything. Illogical or not. Omnipotence is inherently flawed. It's like the creator fallacy. If God created us, who created God? It's proof enough for believers to say that God is the end-all, and all matter, energy, and essentially power begin and end with him. This is where the Faith argument ACTUALLY traps its weak-minded victims. There's no counter argument. It's designed to exist that way. It is because it is. Oh the arrogance. Oh the ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinChild

You CANNOT create EVERYTHING. I don't know how more plainly we can illustrate this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acim

Yes, EVERYTHING can be created.

Nothing unreal can exist.

God is unreal. He does not exist. You, and every single theist on this planet, have provided zero proof. Things don't get more unreal than that. As for the first part of your statement...EVERYTHING can be created? Except a rock too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift. Unreal or not. Omnipotence can't be bothered with silly logical limitations like that. Hell, God could probably make the unreal, real, no? He's omnipotent, after all. Just saying.